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Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*

 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:47 pm 
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I think you'll be surprised.  Despite his abrasive posting style, PG is a nice guy.

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:34 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 10 2005 Aug.,07:47)
I think you'll be surprised. ?Despite his abrasive posting style, PG is a nice guy.

I didn't keep a change log for 3.5 as I was doing most of it via the old Forum but IIRC the changes are

Helltalon
Point increase. Change to bombs

Titan Critical
Reworded Titan criticals. Feral and Ravager have Imperical criticals. The Banelord has a reworded and simpler Daemoinc Rage critical

Forlorn Hope
Making the Forlon Hope only CSM units and not Cult Marines

CSM Retinue
Changing size of Retinue back to 8 units and decreasing allowable Upgrades to a maximum of four. Decreased point cost

Assault Company
0-2 limit

Summoning
Extensive changes. Single summoning pool. Daemon access via Upgrade. Limits to daemon retention

Obliterator
75 points (this may have been in 3.4)

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:27 pm 
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Oblits were already 75 in 3.4 and the points costs of the Forlorn Hope went from 150 to 125 in 3.5. :D




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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:39 pm 
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The Deamon Prince has had fearless added,(thuoght that the amount of fearless troops were a problem along with MW,ignore cover combo weapons)
Champion of Chaos now gets 2d3 instead of d6 for augmenting summoning.

I like the look of the new summoning process.


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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:07 am 
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Is there anywhere I can get a copy of 3.5?

D.

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:44 am 
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Quote (daemonkin @ 12 2005 Aug.,10:07)
Is there anywhere I can get a copy of 3.5?

http://www.specialist-games.com/epic/Vault.asp

Right at the bottom.

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:26 pm 
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Does anyone know why the newer files seem to be appearing at the bottom of the list? I'd've thought it would have made more sense to have had them either in alphabetical order (and not just because the AMTL would be at the top :p ) or with the newest files at the top.

Just strikes me as odd.

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:13 am 
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Quote (dysartes @ 12 2005 Aug.,08:26)
Just strikes me as odd.

And you are talking about who?  :;):

GW = ODD

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:50 pm 
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I didn't play the BL or against it this past weekend, but I did get to see a 8K game of epic BL 3.5 vs. Almost all Terminator Marines list staged deep in a hive city.

I was playing a 6K 40K game shortly after the first turn of the Epic game. (That was IG vs. Orks on the table next to them) but as our game was late to get started, I know the majority of the game's results as it was pretty much a wipe out against marines.

The BL list had a banelord, a chaos reaver, and two independent ferals. He had 2 sets of helltalons, 4 really really big infantry formations with rhinos, characters, and lots of deamonsummoning stuff. He maxed out Tzeentch cult marines in each formation though for the Fearless, RA 4+ armor terminator equivilent capabilities which he says are the cream of the crop. He had what he called "the 2 obligatory decimator formations". And whatever else he had I cannot recall.

The Marine player hasn't been able to beat the v3.4 list - ever, and he thought this almost all terminator list would be a good 'cheese list' to try at this points level vs. the new 3.4 list. The marine player had 16 terminator formations with commanders sprinked in here and there. He had 12 fliers, 1 of the large lander/transporters full of goods to deliver, and whatever else he had I can't recall.

The chaos player had to start placed casually into the city spread out all over the city with very few formations really positioned to lend support to another due to scenerio and being caught off guard by a Marine assault. The marines were trying to take the city. Infantry was all deployed on streets next to vehicels. Titans were all in streets. nothing deployed into buildings by design.

The marines teleported their entire terminator army onto the city in turn 1 and surrounded various targets of opportunity. The terminators were all in buidlings and ruins. Blast markers were placed here and there.

Chaos won the initiative roll off. One large formation of chaos summoned 6 screamer daemons with 4d3 roll (below average) and engaged 4 terminator formations that were intermingled. The terminators lost 5 models and the chaos formation had nothing but the 4 fearless, 4+ RA, Tzeentch marines left. Chaos formation broke. Chaos learned their lesson, they would only FF in combat from here on out.

Chaos retained their initiative, summoned 8 flamer deamons (the new average roll for deamons with augment) and activated their second of four really large formations of chaos BL to engage. They engaged the terminators but only in a FF role. 12 terminators died to the man. Chaos lost some flamers and some of the troops. Chaos won taking just a few blast markers.

Marines were going to activate and assault the banelord with several terminators on another front. Marines rolled a 1 to activate. The supreme commander was off table in a lander.

In the chaos turn, the banelord activated and shot one terminator formation to bits.

Chaos retained and activated another chaos formation to summon flamers (rolled a 10 on 4d3 this time) and assaulted the intermingled terminators on this side of the city - FF them only. Chaos killed two of 3 formations, but the third died due to over kill from assault. Chaos only lost daemons over here and took no blast markers.

In the marines second attempt to activate in the first turn, they called in the supreme commander for an air assault against the banelord, rolled a 1. Supreme commander was in the formation being transported so a reroll was attempted but another 1 to activate!

Chaos third activation attempt and 5th formation now - marines hadn't got to activate successfully yet!

Feral Titan formation kills an 8th formation of terminators by firing on them and puts blast markers on other nearby formations.

Chaos retains a 3rd time and activates the reaver equivilent chaos titan and breaks or kills (can't remember) a 9th formation of termys.

Marines 3rd attempt to activate are finally successfull. 3 formations of termys following a commander chap assault and kill a reaver titan by gettting a load of models into base to base with it - MW h-t-h combat death for titan.

By the end of turn 1, Marines would lose 13 of 16 terminator formations to the man and they would lose about 1/3rd of their fliers.

Chaos would lose both formations of helltalons, reaver, and one formation of chaos marines was down to 4 fearless models.

Marines conceded on the end of turn 1. They were shut out bad.

Some things that were discussed by the players of the game:

Why do the marines have to strike in to really do any damage, shouldn't they be able to play a standard force with deployment that has a chance?

Why did the marines get blown out in 1 turn with an all elite force?

Why did the marines 8000 point army have a hard time doing 1000 points of damage with consentrated efforts?

Why is the assault bike unit a Light Vehicle?

Why is the DP not a WE like Avatar?

Why is the average number of deamons rolled up to 8 now from 7 with augment?

Why are deamons allowed to actually increase the formation's size turn after turn now? The chaos player said he'll have to purchase even more daemons now.

Why are damons still immune to blast markers?

Overall, why did deamons get an uptick in power in the game if they were previously overpowered? Adding points cost looked like it was going to help, but with 4-12 deamons rolled, now increased from 2- 12, and the average number of daemons summoned up from 7 to 8 now, and with the ability to grow a formation, with the elimination of payment for sacrifices, the net result appears to be stronger daemons in the game. How is this really tuning them down?

The Decimator - like before is too good for its points. Ignore cover and macro-weapon is a sick combo for such a cheap war engine when coupled with fearless and the rest of its firepower + DC. Why didn't they tone this down or increase the points significantly?

Why are the death wheel and decimator not part of the titan restricted points?

Why is there so much fearless in the army.

Tzeentch cult marines are fearless, as good as terminators with the 4+ RA, can summon daemons, and can bury themselves in a formation of extra wounds. Why don't they cost more than marine terminators.

Why isn't there a chance for the banelord to blow up with its critical - though there was much conversation and joking about it's previous version of critical. They were both appearently thankful of changes in the titan criticals across the board.

The chaos player said his feral titan formation had better weapons than his reaver titan formation overall. He made the comment that for the points, he'll experiment more with the ferals now.

Both of them were wondering if anyone playtesting Black legion army against marines?

End of the questions I heard being discussed

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:05 pm 
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Tactica, a lot of those questions are ones I heard with 3.4 (with the obvious exceptions of the ones arising from the Daemon changes).

SM's having issues as a standard, non-air drop/teleport force is more a problem with their list than the CSM one, however.

Have you reposted this on the SG board?

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:09 pm 
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reading your play by play description of the fight I'd be hard pressed to name an army list that wouldnt have cleaned the space marines clock with the horible dice rolling he was experiencing that first turn, his formations were also very bunched up, probably to maximise cover or keep close enough to get maximum help in assaults, but in the end he paid a heavy price by being caught intermingled so often, it really sounds as if the battle had more to do with the space marine players luck and bad placement then which army he was facing off agauanst. Not saying your questions about the daemons arent valid, just that the one sided nature of the battle came down to these two other issues.

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:37 pm 
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I gotta go with Grim.  The all-Termie army is very difficult to play and it sounds like it was not a good showing tactically.

It sounds like they didn't understand the activation system.  While I assumed that the first failed activation was due to BMs on the target, it would be completely impossible for an off-board air assault formation (the SC) which is not retaining to have any activation penalties on the first turn.

It further sounds as if the dice truly sucked.  6 unopposed activations from the enemy is crazy (though it was apparently an error).  Losing 12 Termies twice in a row is absolutely ludicrous.  Even if the CSMs had twice what you described, there should have been an intact formation out of each assault.

Overall, I would say it's value as a playtest game is negligible - 8K points, unconventional army composition, incorrect use of the rules, and ridiculously off-the-scale die rolls.

Why is the DP not a WE like Avatar?


I thought you played 40K?  Daemon princes do not have to be Monstrous creatures.  In fact, for obvious reasons, it's a bad tactical choice.

Why is the average number of deamons rolled up to 8 now from 7 with augment... [lots of summoning questions]


Do you realize that the average daemon cost from your description was more than 35 points? Each of those assaults cost 285 points in daemons and upgrades where previously it would have cost 125 for 1 less daemon.

In any case, the real question is not comparative to the previous version, it's whether 850 points of daemons (375 for upgrades, 480 for daemon pool) were disproportionately effective.  In this case?  Yes, but it was largely due to stupendously bad die rolls.

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:21 pm 
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Dysartes,

I didn't post the game to SG because I didn't play the game, just watched it... and I didn't take notes or anything, so its possible that I could have some things messed up in the post. I didn't think it was really the kind of feedback PG was looking for - i.e. second hand feedback that wasn't exactly a full battle rep.

Grim,

I agree. Although the termy's were intentionally intermingled to maximize their effectiveness by the player - atleast that was my take on his strategy, the end result was he couldn't activate anything to save his hide, furthermore, it seemed like he was saving ok to below average. The chaos player wasn't rolling unbelievably great or anything, but the amount of dice he was throwing vs. the amount of dice the marine player was throwing just were overwhelming.

NH,

8K game is much larger than should be used for a batrep, I agree. I think the players knew how to activate the formations. :D

I think the marine player had blast markers on almost everyone of his termy formations from teleport and/or chaos retaliation and so probably forgot that he didn't have to apply the negative 1 to his ground assault activation. Oops, more of an error than an ignorance of the rules thing.

Regards to DP, sure, I play chaos in both games. However, I didn't post a list of my questions, it was a list of the questions by the players that I overheard. I think I know the answers to some of those questions, or at least have an answer to some of them. I communicated my opinions to the players too. I thought the questions would be of interest to the masses as 'other people' are thinking about these concepts. Nothing more.

Regards to Daemons, yes, I'm aware of the costs, again - the questions were derivatives of the game - whether imbalanced or not or played correctly or not. I haven't played the new list and am not claiming its imbalanced or dead on yet. I thought the masses might like to hear the questions that were discussed post game - not trying to say/imply anything else.

Regards to the dice, from what I seen. The marine player was having pretty average dice on hitting and saving - though the chaos player was saying the marine player had 'hot dice' and what not... the reality of it is that the 4+RA was really saving the Marine players arse. He had the occasional above average roll, that's for sure. The chaos player had some crazy amounts of dice in some of his combats. Granted, it was an 8K game with massive units and some of the combats were huge, but the chaos player was clearly rolling worse than the marine player. He was throwing a LOT more dice per few hundred points of models in combat though... there was no question about that. The numbers just looked to over run the termy's.

I chalked this game up to more of a "wow"...
1) never seen somebody fail so many activations,
2) termy's blow if they can't get into base to base with chaos
3) 8K of Chaos can FF down terminators like hot knife through butter

So - "wow" - more than anything else.

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:25 pm 
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thought the masses might like to hear the questions that were discussed post game - not trying to say/imply anything else.


Fair enough.  I thought you were endorsing them.  My mistake.

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:50 am 
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About the 8,000 pt city fight, just my two cents anyways.

This is a 'just curious' question, but how big was the table, 8,000 points is a lot to cram into a 4x6, and even a 4x8 table.
Sorta favors Horde type armies if it was.

CSM does very well when things are close up, and there is no room to maneuver, SM does well when things are more open and they have room to maneuver. It would seem that this battle was against the SM from the start (A city fight not the best terrain for the SM).

I disagree with the players comments that an SM army has to use Alpa Strikes to accomplish anything. In my experiences breaking in new players, it is the mark of a newbie SM player that falls back onto Alpha Strikes as the only solution to gaining ground with the SM.

Experienced players learn how to maximize the SMs strengths, to accomplish their missions, without the need for Alpha Strikes, then when they do use them, they are even more effective.

That said I do believe the SM Army needs some minor tweaks to balance it out a bit visa vie it's smaller average formation sizes, but it is an effective army without them.

As for winning with SM, I do just fine with them just this weekend I played two battles using them, and lost one close one to the CSM (Tie Breaker), and spanked the LatD (Though a two activations of real bad dice rolls by the LatD player turned it from a close battle into a walkover).

In neither battle did I use an LC or TH, and only one Terminator Formation was used in the secon battle.

I do admit the SM Army is tough to use and the learning curve is much longer, but IMHO it is the mark of a good Epic-A player that can use the SM effectively.

Jaldon :oo

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