Tactical Command
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deamon prince as s.com
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12933		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  kev101 [ Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  deamon prince as s.com
does the deamon prince have to be the
s.com or can you keep the warlord
Author:  Mephiston [ Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:  deamon prince as s.com
The rules state

"Replace the unit in the formation that includes the Chaos
Lord or Warlord character with a Daemon Prince unit."

So the daemon prince doesn't have to be your warlord. Mine won't be on Saturday.
Author:  Ginger [ Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  deamon prince as s.com
As Mephiston says, because you have the option to replace either the Chaos Warlord or a Chaos Lord, you may choose to avoid making the Daemon Prince your Supreme Commander.

Personally, this is yet another niggle with this list that is not overpowering in-and-of-itself, but which adds that extra capability for adding the Prince to the army while keeping the SC safe. It also seems slightly illogical from a "fluff perspective:- you get an unearthly powerfull added to the army that causes mere mortals to quake in their boots etc - yet at the same time, he obeys a fleshy human SC!?

And don't forget, at DC3 3+RA, the Daemon prince is easily the toughest critter in play (and well OTT IMHO); and all that for a mere 50 points (which is overpowered)!!!!!
Author:  BlackLegion [ Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:10 am ]
Post subject:  deamon prince as s.com
Is not a problem in fluff. Abaddon himselfe is no Daemon Prince yet he has several under his command.
Author:  pixelgeek [ Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:19 am ]
Post subject:  deamon prince as s.com

(Ginger @ Jun. 22 2008,17:07)
QUOTE
Personally, this is yet another niggle with this list that is not overpowering in-and-of-itself, but which adds that extra capability for adding the Prince to the army while keeping the SC safe.

Why should it be a problem that it doesn't replace the SC?
Author:  Ginger [ Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:34 am ]
Post subject:  deamon prince as s.com
Because I understood it to be a general design principle that some weaknesses should be built into all units (or they should be priced accordingly). Here, mandating that the DP becomes the SC does add some small inconvenience to an otherwise horrendous unit.
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:01 am ]
Post subject:  deamon prince as s.com

(Ginger @ Jun. 23 2008,01:07)
QUOTE
And don't forget, at DC3 3+RA, the Daemon prince is easily the toughest critter in play (and well OTT IMHO); and all that for a mere 50 points (which is overpowered)!!!!!

Er... Daemon Princes don't have Damage Capacity... they're a simple infantry stand...

You're thinking of Greater Daemons, I believe, and you CANNOT use them to replace a Warlord character in the army...
Author:  pixelgeek [ Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:08 am ]
Post subject:  deamon prince as s.com

(Ginger @ Jun. 22 2008,18:34)
QUOTE
Because I understood it to be a general design principle that some weaknesses should be built into all units (or they should be priced accordingly). Here, mandating that the DP becomes the SC does add some small inconvenience to an otherwise horrendous unit.

So are saying that the DP is over-powered?

And given your DC comment are you sure what we're talking about?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  deamon prince as s.com
Aye I think that Ginger has the 3+RA save (Daemon Prince) mixed up with the Greater Daemon (DC3).

Mind you, at 3+ RA, the Daemon Prince is the hardest Infantry unit in the game. He normally has an Invulnerable Save too.

In a Black Legion army, he always Teleports with Terminators, there's no other people use him, AFAIK.
Author:  Ginger [ Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  deamon prince as s.com
Ok - with some apologies, I was confusing the DP with the Greater Daemon.

However, the DP is both too cheap at +50 points and somewhat overpowered:-
  • 3+ Reinforced Armour, Invulnerable save and Fearless makes him virtually impossible to kill (around 1/14).
  • 2x extra MW (TK) attacks in Close Combat Plus 1x extra MW (TK) attack when firefighting makes this a very potent unit.
  • Teleport allows him to arrive with a very focussed assault.
  • Finally allowing it to avoid being the Supreme commander means that ultimately he is also expendable - allowing the Chaos player maximum freedom to deploy this horror with no consequential drawbacks if it is lost through the opponents skill or luck.


The Greater Daemons are even worse in some respects!
  • Under the published rules, at 100 points for a DC3 or DC4 RA Titan and +50 points to keep him, the only problem is the risk that it will not appear when wanted. 8+ will appear 15/36 on 2D6 times, or around 42% of the time. So it is more probable that it will appear than staying off-table
  • Some Greater Daemons are evidently better than the others - IMO the Tzeench Daemon with 30cms move with a strong Firefight attack is the best, even though it is "only" a DC3+. I suspect that one of the main reasons you do not see more of these beasts is actually the "hated" factions rule because people seem to prefer the lesser deamons of another group.
Author:  Steve54 [ Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  deamon prince as s.com
I've always found that Daemon princes and greater daemons look far better on paper than in actual gameplay.

Firstly the DP doesn't cost 50pts as it replaces a unit you have already paid for. In a retinue all they are really good for is as a survivor unit to prevent the BTS dieing as it very rarely wil actually get into combat. The only effective way to use it is with Chosen and then you are paying 115pts for it - and furthermore are risking it in the strategy roll.

The Greater Daemon looks great as an anti-titan unit but once again is only viable in a Chosen formation - and then you are paying a minmimum of nearly 500pts for a unit whose survival is based upon an strategy roll. So is too great a risk against any armies but IG+variants - who even then will probably have scout screened their titans.
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  deamon prince as s.com
DP:  Personally, I think that with MW instead of TK it's okay.  It might be a little bit overpowered, but not by much.  Just for a quick and dirty comparison, in a formation of Chosen it's effective cost is 115 points versus 65 for the Chosen.  It is ~2x as durable and ~2x as good in assaults (overall - better in FF, less than 2x in CC), but has no ranged fire.

Costing +70-75% might be a touch low, but it's not abusively so.  


GD:  The actual cost of a Greater Daemon is considerably greater than 100 points.  Even after you discount the non-summoning abilities you get when buying the summoning upgrades, the total cost is more like 150-175.  Compare them to scout titans (as similarly sized and weaponed units) and that looks about right, or even a bit expensive.
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