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Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?

 Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:48 am 
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Hi Folks,

I was just wondering what people thought of the Eldar Ulthwe list and how they feel about playing with and against it. Is it a fair list? Is it a list you'd feel comfortable seeing at a tournament? etc etc...

Adam


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 Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:13 am 
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Tiny Tim would be good to answer here, try and track down his contact details.

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 Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:47 pm 
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Not only do I think it's fair, I encouraged its submission to the ERC for review and approval.  As far as I'm concerned, it's ready to go.

I am pushing Jervis to release it along with the Black Legion and L&D lists as a sort of "Eye of Terror" Epic release.

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 Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:30 pm 
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I have been playing with the Ulthwe list for quite some time now and yes it is a good list. It is nasty and can cause some crushing defeats on its opponents.

Having said all that it does suffer from the same problems as any Eldar list. Also the Aspects are harder to use as they are in smaller numbers. Personally I don't use Aspects that much now and leave the fighting to Guardians boosted with Wraith constructs. Its something that you can do with the current list but if they are Black Guardians then they are harder.

So I would say that it is a fair list (as far as all Eldar lists are :D ) and yes I will be taking it to tournaments and expect to see others playing with it as well.

As an aside, if the list isn't published by the time Open War 4 is run I'll be trying out my list under the BT rules. not as good but a good chance for a comparison

Tiny

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 Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:50 pm 
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There is one combination that I've been thinking could have a potentially devastating effect and I'm curious if anyone has used it:

Take a guardian warhost make it your Black Guardian warhost, upgrade a guardian to an additional farseer and the original farseer to a Farseer Council. Take the waveserpent upgrade and then the 4 falcon upgrade. It's very expensive but potentially destructive what with the falcon's ability to wreak havoc on vehicles and the FF ability of all units involved.

Black Guardian FOrmation:[150]
1 Farseer Council [25]
1 Farseer Upgrade [25]
6 Guardians
2 Wave serpents [200]
4 Falcons [150]

Total Units: 14
Total Cost: 550pts

Thoughts?

Adam


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 Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:09 pm 
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I think Ulthwe is a great list and it's what I'm using for my homegrown Craftworld, but I'm still of the opinion that it needs some tweaking.

That Strategy Rating 5 is still something they're getting "for free".  The biggest "abuse" I've been able to pull off with it was bumping a Marine Battle Barge's arrival into Turn 4 by declaring my Wraithship's arrival in Turn 3.  Sure, I had a 50/50 chance of doing that (well, slightly better than 50/50 as my birthday is next up *laugh*), but it was something the local Marine player had never had to contend with before.  His entire drop army was prevented from entering play as the game was easily won by Ulthwe in Turn 3 when only two units of garrisoned Devastators were available to him.  Any other army with a "slow-n-steady" ship is automatically hosed if the Ulthwe player brings a spaceship, not to mention the benefits of choosing table edges, set up order, placing teleporters, etc.  It may be "only one extra point", but I think it's significant.

Compared to Biel-Tan, Ulthwe tends to (at least in my experience) have more activations, have a Supreme Commander that doesn't have to risk getting "stuck-in" to be useful (and I'd gladly pay 50 points for a Supreme Commander with +2 MW attacks in both CC and FF, plus all the other Farseer benefits than 75 for Inspiring and +1 MW attack), has some better Guardians, and is more likely to have *nasty* Guardian Warhosts with many upgrades (my local grew is more afraid of facing a Wraith-enhanced Guardian formation than facing an Aspect Warhost).  All of this for the same point value as Biel-Tan.

Looking at the Battlestats, even though there's only been about 30 Ulthwe games posted, they've got the second highest win percentage, and they are smoking Biel-Tan (in the few games we've played Biel-Tan vs Ulthwe, Biel-Tan hasn't won yet.).  The loss of Aspect Warhosts does not seem to be enough of a "payment" for the advantages of Ulthwe, since they can be easily replaced by other strong units.

My suggestion is simply to raise the point cost of Ulthwe formations by 5-10 points each; the Guardian formations by 10, perhaps the super-heavies as well, and other formations by 5.  It's not much, but it's subtle enough to have a nice effect.  In a 2700 point game, with 12 activations, that enough to have to choose to include Support Platforms or not for a Warhost, whether to upgrade Wraithguard to Wraithlords, or how many Exarchs to include.  It makes some tough choices for the Ulthwe player, which I, as one, think is a good thing.

I'm really tired of people complaining about any Eldar being cheesy/beardy.  And Ulthwe, with nearly all the advantages of Biel-Tan and then some, really makes itself a target for such complaints, whether they're valid or not.  I think it's better to err on the side of caution than status quo.  The subtle changes I've suggested do not require extensive playtesting, I think they're just enough to flavour the difference of Uthwe.

Thoughts and comments?[B][B]

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 Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:13 pm 
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Thanks for your input Chroma, and Tim, I'm taking them into consideration when i design my list for this tourney coming up.

On the topic of Aspect Warriors... I actually like the smaller formations that are offered in the Ulthwe list then the larger ones in the Biel-Tan list, largely because the point expenditure means that I have more tactical flexibility and I hate having to allocate my supreme commander to a formation that very likely could also be my most expensive formation (for Break Their Spirit)...

Adam


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 Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:34 am 
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Quote (Clockwerks @ 19 2005 July,16:50)
There is one combination that I've been thinking could have a potentially devastating effect and I'm curious if anyone has used it:

Black Guardian Formation:[150]
1 Farseer Council [25]
1 Farseer Upgrade [25]
6 Guardians
2 Wave serpents [200]
4 Falcons [150]

Total Units: 14
Total Cost: 550pts

Thoughts?

Adam

Its a good combination. Fast and deadly.

I see that you are suggesting using it for FF engagements and I would be inclinded to agree. But if so why the extra ponts on CC orienated (sp?) Seer Council and Extra Farseer.

To get maximum benefit from these guys they need to be in the front line trading blows and thus they take the first hits. Not really what I want I want my SC to be doing.

Tiny.

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 Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:39 am 
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Chroma,

One quick point, having a spacecraft fail to activate the turn before your opponent's spacecraft does not bump that craft back a turn. Your craft goes into the next available space.

Tiny

Oh yes and SM are Strat 5 as well, so its a roll off on choosing sides etc.





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 Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:13 pm 
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Quote (Tiny-Tim @ 20 2005 July,08:39)
One quick point, having a spacecraft fail to activate the turn before your opponent's spacecraft does not bump that craft back a turn. Your craft goes into the next available space.

At the start of the game, after placing objectives, you declare spaceships, correct?  

We diced off, I won, and declared "Turn 3", therefore, his "slow and steady" Battle Barge could *only* come in on Turn 4, which never occured as I'd won the game by then since over 2/3 of his army was still off the board.

That dice-off only occured because Ulthwe has SR5, any other Eldar army (or non-Marine army) would've had to face that Battlebarge with nothing they could do about it.  That's a significant advantage, even if it's not 100% reliable.

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 Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:15 pm 
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Quote (Tiny-Tim @ 20 2005 July,08:34)
I see that you are suggesting using it for FF engagements and I would be inclinded to agree. But if so why the extra ponts on CC orienated (sp?) Seer Council and Extra Farseer.

Seer Council also has +2FF (MW) attacks, thought it's at 5+, that's still nasty.

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 Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:20 pm 
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Quote (Chroma @ 20 2005 July,12:13)
Quote (Tiny-Tim @ 20 2005 July,08:39)
One quick point, having a spacecraft fail to activate the turn before your opponent's spacecraft does not bump that craft back a turn. Your craft goes into the next available space.

At the start of the game, after placing objectives, you declare spaceships, correct? ?

We diced off, I won, and declared "Turn 3", therefore, his "slow and steady" Battle Barge could *only* come in on Turn 4, which never occured as I'd won the game by then since over 2/3 of his army was still off the board.

That dice-off only occured because Ulthwe has SR5, any other Eldar army (or non-Marine army) would've had to face that Battlebarge with nothing they could do about it. ?That's a significant advantage, even if it's not 100% reliable.

You are quite correct. I mis-understood what you initially said.

But anybody playing with a Battlebarge faces the same possible problem if they come up against another marine player with a spacecraft in a tournament.

Tiny

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 Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:04 pm 
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I find that with the 4+ invulnerable save the SC is usually worth getting in to have a better chance of getting the CC MW attacks in vs the 5+ FF attacks. I find they'll usually survive against what I throw at them.

That said though there is something to be said for showing some caution with that particular unit... It is a blow to lose your supreme commander, no matter how cheap he might be.

It's also partially part of my style too... I'm loathe to hide my units if I can go for the throat... I'm definitely one of those 'take the fight to their doorstep' kind of generals.

Adam


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 Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:55 pm 
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I don't think the spacecraft is a viable issue with respect to the power of the list.  Fielding a serious portion of your force as a Slow and Steady drop force has always been a highly risky move.

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 Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:01 pm 
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Yup, I agree... I always own anyone who fields their stuff in a Slow and Steady ship...

Adam


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