Tactical Command
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BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1205		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Tactica [ Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
I understand the mods of the CSM forum have made it an invite only forum. I'm assuming I won't be invited.

Since I still play the list and have an interest in what Jervis said was going to be public forum - Is there a place where 'the entire public' can see the topics discussed, even if 'some of us' cannot reply or create threads?

I'd like to know what's happening with Daemon Summoning. I understand Audrey is tentatively waiting to post the next LoTD list as daemon summoning is still under debate/discussion amongst champions (and possibly the invited masses?).

Also, when is the next BL:CSM revision going to get posted (rough time frame is OK).

Where will the BL:CSM list end up?
Author:  dafrca [ Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
Quote (Tactica @ 12 2005 July,08:45)
I understand the mods of the CSM forum have made it an invite only forum. I'm assuming I won't be invited.

Since I still play the list and have an interest in what Jervis said was going to be public forum - Is there a place where 'the entire public' can see the topics discussed, even if 'some of us' cannot reply or create threads?

I'd like to know what's happening with Daemon Summoning. I understand Audrey is tentatively waiting to post the next LoTD list as daemon summoning is still under debate/discussion amongst champions (and possibly the invited masses?).

Also, when is the next BL:CSM revision going to get posted (rough time frame is OK).

Where will the BL:CSM list end up?

You may want to email Pixelgeek as well. That way you know the champion knows:

a) Your interest

and

b) You know he saw your questions.

Just a suggestion.

dafrca
Author:  QuintAan [ Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
I'm not part of the "inner circle" either, but I have gleaned some info from Pixelgeek's blog:
http://crusades.blogspot.com/

Of particular interest is:

Now if you are a Forum regular and are wondering why you haven't seen an announcement of this that is because all initial playtesting of the list is being done via a private Yahoo Group. I'd like to stress that this is only initial testing. The list will eventually be put into the public for commentary (heck feel free to post comments here) but with the changes in the Forum it was thought that having a distinct playtesting group would make it easier to get the list developed and tested.

The playtest group is currently 15 people but there is room for it to expand as we add new members based on their comments in the new Fanatic Forum.
Author:  Tas [ Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:  BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
If thats the way he wants to play it - fine.  Let him
Author:  Tactica [ Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
Quote (Tas @ 12 2005 July,23:20)
If thats the way he wants to play it - fine. ?Let him

Yep, not going to worry about being part of an 'inner circle' - but it would be nice to atleast read the results of what the 'chosen' were coming up with.

LOL, a select group seems to really go against the idea of solid playtesting.

The smaller the playtest group, the less likely they are to run into the gambit of problems a new list can incur.

Whatever.
Author:  Tas [ Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:53 am ]
Post subject:  BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
Exactly!

and Welcome to the forums Tactica! :)
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:17 am ]
Post subject:  BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
I think the small group isn't a replacement for playtesting, but rather an attempt to get a coherant list together before it goes out to the playtestors.

Look at 40k. Development is done by a small group then the list goes in for destruction testing.

We get to do the destruction testing :)
Author:  dafrca [ Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 12 2005 July,23:17)
I think the small group isn't a replacement for playtesting, but rather an attempt to get a coherant list together before it goes out to the playtestors.

Look at 40k. Development is done by a small group then the list goes in for destruction testing.

We get to do the destruction testing :)

I agree, I think Pixelgeek is right to try and pull together a basic starting point up front. It helps to also keep the focus on the list as they see it.

dafrca
Author:  QuintAan [ Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
So long as it doesn't become an echo chamber that ignores most of the outside feedback it should all be fine.
Author:  dafrca [ Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
Quote (QuintAan @ 13 2005 July,05:04)
So long as it doesn't become an echo chamber that ignores most of the outside feedback it should all be fine.

Again, you see it one way, having tried to start a list and having delt with all the white noise and pages of flame war level arguments, I donot see it the same way.

If Pixelgeek does what he said he will do, and I have no reason to think he will not, then avoiding the months of fighting is wise.

Pull together a basic "Version One List" and then posting it to the vault. Only at that point then it becomes open to public playtesting. The advantage, the list starts with a focus.

dafrca
Author:  Tactica [ Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
[quote="dafrca,13 2005 July,19:05"]
Again, you see it one way, having tried to start a list and having delt with all the white noise and pages of flame war level arguments, I donot see it the same way.

If Pixelgeek does what he said he will do, and I have no reason to think he will not, then avoiding the months of fighting is wise.

Pull together a basic "Version One List" and then posting it to the vault. Only at that point then it becomes open to public playtesting. The advantage, the list starts with a focus.

dafrca

Sure, there's at least two perspectives here.

The way I see it, a visionary and the consumer.

The visionary or list champion works to avoid a democracy impact and desires a focus group for refining his intended direction of the list for various reasons prior to its release for public consumption.

The consumer or public wants their concerns/desires addressed as a core consideration, not as a retro fit to a vision that they may or may not agree with.

The problem *for some of us* is we are not talking about a brand new list, we are talking about a list that
1) has already been in the public's hands for some time and is now being pulled away.
2) ?is in need of much rework despite the amount of time its been in playtest.
3) is due for completion in the very near future (sept 05?)


At the end of the day, the decision is not ours to make how its handled though so - here's hoping for the best.

EDITED BY VANVLAK 14/7/2005
Author:  Baduin [ Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
It has been said that attack is the best defence, but I am not sure if that saying should be applied to army design.
Author:  Irondeath [ Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
I?ll retiterate what I said in Quitntaan?s army thread (sorry for hijacking that one, I?m sure he?s reading this?)

BL3.5

Changes include

Limit of four upgrades per formation

CSM Retinue down to 8 CSM units

Cult Marines now an upgrade

0-2 limit on Assault Co

Forlorn Hope only CSM units

Price decrease for CSM Retinue

Summoning Changes (extensive and based on Neal and Audrey's Daemon Pack rules)

Helltalon now 2BP with no Ignore Cover

Critical Changes to Titans

Strategy roll of 6 adds 1D3 daemons, roll of 1 loses 1D6 daemons

IB no longer Inspiring

Champion now 2D3 Augment Summoning

Daemon Prince is now Fearless

Limit of one GD per faction on the table at any one time


So a maximum of 2 lone Decimators.

No "Free Fearless" troops.

Retinue price decrease is 280->275 points.

Helltalons at 300 w/o Ignore Cover

Summoning, when it is resolved, will definitely be more exepensive than before, by a factor of 2x or 3x IMO.

All said and done, yours and others concerns are taken seriously and the problems are adressed.



@Tactica: The problem with your style is, IMO, that you mix perfectly valid points, as stated in your post above, with personal attacks, again as above.

This is really unfortunate and detracts and distracts from your points.

Just my opinion, with the intent to offer a different perspective.
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
I regret that PG felt driven to the decision he made.  Nonetheless, I understand.  An open forum might have been salvageable but I tend to think that the "free for all" was not providing substantially useful feedback compared to the volume and vitriol being generated.

A prime example of why I agree the open forum was untenable would be the Daemon Summoning debate (and I use the term extremely loosely).

EDITED BY VANVLAK 15/7/2005 - NOTE - THIS POST WAS BY NO MEANS OFFENSIVE OR OTHERWISE DAMAGING TO THE FORUM, HOWEVER, DIRECT REFERENCES TO SECTIONS OF PREVIOUS POSTS WHICH HAVE NOW BEEN DELETED WERE NOW REMOVED. SEE MY APOLOGETIC NOTE FURTHER DOWN.

Edit - I went ahead and deleted all the responses to said text.
Author:  Tactica [ Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:16 am ]
Post subject:  BL: CSM Current List and Forum?
[quote="Irondeath,13 2005 July,22:05"][/quote]
@ Irondeath

First, a sincere 'TY' for posting your comments.

Summoning, when it is resolved, will definitely be more exepensive than before, by a factor of 2x or 3x IMO.


This remains to be seen. I don't know how its being attacked. I note that this is your opinion and not fact.

All said and done, yours and others concerns are taken seriously and the problems are adressed.

I hope you are right. I would concede that some of my concerns do appear to be getting addressed. I'm not sure how titan crits are going to be handled or if the best approach is being taken since discussion is now private. I guess time will tell.

@Tactica: The problem with your style is, IMO, that you mix perfectly valid points, as stated in your post above, with personal attacks, again as above.

This is really unfortunate and detracts and distracts from your points.

Just my opinion, with the intent to offer a different perspective.

I appreciate the perspective and comments. We all see the world through our own lenses. You see the above as an attack. I respect that. I didn't mean it that way.
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