SM and IG working together? |
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Falesh
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Post subject: SM and IG working together?  Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:05 am |
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Hey there. In armageddon is it allowed to have a SM force with some IG tanks in it too? I've checked about and from what I've seen they seem to be two completely separate armies. I'm just wondering because my brother has collected a lot of SM infantry and a lot of IG tanks and has been used to playing a force of SM's supported by IG armour.
If they don't fight together, does anyone know of a background that describes why? I would have thought that all humans would be able to fight together, but wut do I know I is just a big fik Ork.
Falesh
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Falesh
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Post subject: SM and IG working together? Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:17 am |
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Woops, I thought I'd checked up well but I missed this:
"Q: One query on the lists. Can I use combined Guard and
Marine forces? If so, what strategy rating do they use?
A: I?ve decided to make the Guard and the Marines separate
armies. Rules for ?allied? armies were allowed during playtesting,
but were found to be open to abuse so we banned
them in tournament play. If you devise your own scenarios
you can, of course, use allied armies. If you do then each
formation uses its own army initiative value."
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Chris
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Post subject: SM and IG working together? Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:19 am |
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Like the quote says, Tournament play says no Allies...
However, if you and your brother were having a fun game together, there is nothing stopping him having a combined SM and IG force. But if he would ever want to play in a tournament, he would have to either get some SM tanks or some IG infantry.
Hope this is of help!
Cheers
Chris
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Chris
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Falesh
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Post subject: SM and IG working together? Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:31 am |
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Thanks for the reply!
Out of interest do you know what it was that was being abused that made them take the rule out. Or more specifically what should me and my brother look out for to avoid making a SM/IG combo too powerful?
Falesh
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Chris
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Post subject: SM and IG working together? Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:13 am |
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I'm not entirely sure what caused the removal of the rule, but I would guess it would be that taking two balanced army lists, and combining them, meant that people could quite easily take the most powerful parts of both and make a "super-powerful" army list.
As for combinations you should look out for, the easist soultion is to just play and fins out for yourself! If say your brother took some SM infantry and a super heavy tank company, and it was too powerful, ban super heavy companies from use and limit them to support formations.
Again I hope this helps!
Cheers
Chris
Lastly, just out of curiosity, where on this little planet are you from?
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Chris
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Legion 4
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Post subject: SM and IG working together? Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:22 am |
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We have fought SMs & IG as allies all the time, since SM1 in '90. We just follow the rules for fighting with allies and choosing forces. We would never play Tournament Rules either. 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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iblisdrax
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Post subject: SM and IG working together? Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:25 am |
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The only problem I have with them banning this rule is that in the GW 40k fluff, the Guard and the SM are Supposed to be able to work together. The reason that they banned this combination is that they couldn't or wouldn't take the time to figure out a way to force players to field the combination correctly, ie not simply piecemeal, an artillery unit here, a tank unit there. That combination will result in a very powerfull force, the SM infantry and the IG armor and artillery. To just simply ban the use of them together is quite frankly, annoying.
my $.02
iblisdrax
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primarch
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Post subject: SM and IG working together? Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:06 am |
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Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
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Hi!
Allies in epic has been a long debated question. From a fluff point of view IG and SM are the same armies, forces of the Imperium after all. From a balance point of view I think they should be kept apart because it does lend itself to abuse. Thats what we did in net epic and its worked well.
Primarch
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Legion 4
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Post subject: SM and IG working together? Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:31 am |
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In keeping with the SM1 rules, units are drawn as Companies or Battalions with supporting elements, so units could not be drawn piecemeal. You could have an SM Co. supporting an IG Bn or visa versa. Organizational Templates and Force Levels, plus a good set of rules for TO&Es makes it work without being "beardy" (to use a G/W term). That being said we didn't always choose allies and in many cases, fought a unit with all organic assets. However, SM1 Rules were designed with "allied" forces in mind ... As in the fluff ... 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Tas
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Post subject: SM and IG working together? Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:30 am |
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I am a big fan of having Allied units and agree- it got banned because a loop-hole free rule couldnt be developed to stop "min-maxers".
I would suggest a percentage total allowed for allies (say 30%) and as L4 states, you must take full companies and any support dets must support the formnation they were bought with. IE an IG Support formation cant be attached to a SM Detachment.
If you want to restrict them a bit more and represent the (extremely realistic) problems of comms channels etc between two very different forces, do not allow them to dircetly support one another in firefights. This means you have to think carefully about how to employ your allies.
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Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
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Falesh
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Post subject: SM and IG working together? Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:55 am |
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Thanks for the help all, it's clarified a number of things. We're going to start with 30%, same dets/companies and see how it goes. If it's too powerful we'll tweak it for the next game.
Falesh
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Tas
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Post subject: SM and IG working together? Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:23 am |
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Sounds Good! Please let us know how it goes
Cheers
Tas
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Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/
My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
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Legion 4
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Post subject: SM and IG working together? Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:08 am |
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Yes, that's generally the way to do it. ?And as Tas, said the interoperability of units would be a factor. ?And you may have to think thru how you will use certain units. ?With activation, which is the hallmark of E:A, and a system we have always used, this should not be a problem.
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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asaura
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Post subject: SM and IG working together? Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:30 am |
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[quote="Tas,02 2004 Jan.,03:30"][/quote]
I would suggest a percentage total allowed for allies (say 30%) and as L4 states, you must take full companies and any support dets must support the formnation they were bought with. ?IE an IG Support formation cant be attached to a SM Detachment.
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Limiting company / support choices does not prevent min/maxing, which is why the "no allies" rule sounds good for tournaments. Cherrypicking is quite possible with that restriction in place. Consider a Steel Legion Artillery Company supported by Vultures and Deathstrikes supporting a Space Marine army. *shudder*
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