Tactical Command
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Flame Template weapons
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11342		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  rpr [ Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Flame Template weapons
When firing a flame template, where should the originating point be?
Lets think like square 40x40mm base on a warhound...

Especially, with Land Train (Demiurg list) and Crucible car? How about multiple Crubile cars? What if the Land Train itself is under the template, it is very hard to position so that it is not... (and limits its usability considerably)

And when positioning it, the rules state that maximise enemy units under it, but hopefully the top priority could be to minimize own units under it...
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Flame Template weapons
Just another reason why the teardrop template doesn't work in Epic: Armageddon...
Author:  TheLimey [ Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Flame Template weapons
Given the nature of the land train, I would say that you have to watch the positioning of the template very carefully. It should be a risk, and if you catch other cars or the engine, then you catch them.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Flame Template weapons
The flame template works as good as in Wh40k.
Author:  rpr [ Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Flame Template weapons

(TheLimey @ Dec. 27 2007,20:36)
QUOTE
Given the nature of the land train, I would say that you have to watch the positioning of the template very carefully. It should be a risk, and if you catch other cars or the engine, then you catch them.

You really want it so that all Land Trains are packed with Pilums :]
(maybe Roadmakers, too)

...90 fixed front + template rules + land train engine - very limited firing (as rules state that it must lay completely within fire-arc)

And the question still remains: how it is placed? Any point of the firing unit?
Author:  Chroma [ Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:16 am ]
Post subject:  Flame Template weapons

(rpr @ Dec. 27 2007,15:46)
QUOTE
And when positioning it, the rules state that maximise enemy units under it, but hopefully the top priority could be to minimize own units under it...

I would add a line to the rule that the firing model is never affected by the template... but that other friendly models can be hit.

Best place to "start" the template is the actual weapon firing it, I would say.
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Flame Template weapons
I've been seriously rethinking whether we should have a flamer template.  Despite the fact that it's pretty intuitive and a lot of time has been spent on the rules for it, they are still a bit hinky.  It might be easier to modify the one official unit (GUO) and the various playtest units to use BP weapons instead.

For the nonce:
The rules say "touching the model" for the narrow end, and that all the template must be in the firing arc.  I'd say that means the narrow end must also be in the fire arc, and anyplace on the model that fits that description is valid.

You should be able to minimize your own casualties when placing the template.  The barrage placement rules make exceptions to the "most enemy units" for various factors and this is really no different.
Author:  Markconz [ Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Flame Template weapons
Much as I hate to say it, it might be cleaner in the long run to get rid of it. It doesn't add much that the barrage rules could not already achieve I think.

Just as a point of note, in 40k the hellhound uses the flame template, but it can be placed anywhere within 24". Ie the narrow end doesn't have to touch the vehicle. This represents it hosing the flame in an arc towards an area or something... but the point is it is only a short step from this towards just using a normal barrage with range of 15cm (eg BP 2 Ignore cover for something like an inferno gun).
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Flame Template weapons
I used to be a proponent of working the flame template into Epic, and experimented with several different ways of bringing it in. Eventually I decided that it simply doesn't work well in the majority of cases.

In most cases, having such weapons as BP weapons offer a superior solution.
Author:  epilgrim [ Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:29 am ]
Post subject:  Flame Template weapons
to make the template usable on the land train without cooking itself this rule is included:

Special: Flexible Coupling Leads: Each Battle Car may rotate 45* off the axis of the Land Train to get a bearing on a target

it may have been missed, by some readers, but I did think of the problems associated with a WE that could potentially hit itself ?:p
Author:  rpr [ Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Flame Template weapons

(epilgrim @ Jan. 06 2008,04:29)
QUOTE
to make the template usable on the land train without cooking itself this rule is included:

Special: Flexible Coupling Leads: Each Battle Car may rotate 45* off the axis of the Land Train to get a bearing on a target

it may have been missed, by some readers, but I did think of the problems associated with a WE that could potentially hit itself  :p

I know the rule. With it, the land train crucible car can fire without hitting itself if (and only if) the car is rotated this 45 degrees. Then there is like 5 degrees of aiming flexibility available. So, the car basically has "5 degree firing arc, and only if rotated at max". This is the combination of the shape of the flame template and the rule that it must lay completely within the fire-arc (90 degrees).

This is terribly unwieldy and can lead to very annoying pin-pointing of the model facing (reminds me of these left-side and right-side weapon combinations when you have to face the model exactly to be able to shoot target with both weapon systems...)

In this particular situation, 'forward firing arc' (not fixed) would help the situation somehow. Not that much, as the flame template would still never be in FxF arc of the previous car, and thus most of the time the land train would either shoot this flame template or use its FxF guns.. (ok this can be avoided a bit by clever placement of cars, like land train - pilum car - crucible car)
Author:  zombocom [ Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Flame Template weapons
put me down as another one who isn't keen on the flame template.

It seems as though it is used simply because it is available. Just because 40k and fantasy use it, epic doesn't have to.
Author:  epilgrim [ Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Flame Template weapons
it may very well be that the flamer template is unusable, but trying and playing will prove it out.

so far in any games using the Land Train with the Crucible Car it has never hit itself and never wiped out a horrific number of models that made it seem unfair, nor has it been dificult to apply.

I know that in general many ofthe forum members don't see the need to use the flame template, but I don't recall any playtest examples where it was pointed out as problamatic. Griping about it alone isn't enough of a reason to give up on it...
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