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So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .

 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:56 pm 
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From reading the first post to the last, I noticed that one point has been missed until Magnus posted his message (before mine).

WH40K is targetted for 10-15 age bracket, but in fact has followes of age of 8+. This is because they are quite large figures and even youngesters can paint them (even if they don't understand or know all the rules). Then you have the vetrans and even newbies who can convert these models easily giving players even more different looks to their army.

The same can not be said for Epic. They are not easy to paint (especially for younger kids) and not easily converted. This means that the followers/audeiance for Epic is vastly reduced and rely on GW to provide the variety of models.

Every product has a target audience, and no matter how popular it can get, if the audience is limited, it won't do well. And unfortunately Epic falls into this category.

So even if GW did provide better support and we players made more effort to help it, this Game can only marginally profitable for GW.


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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:14 pm 
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After all the rhetoric ... we're just going to wait and see ...

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:02 pm 
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Hi!


Not quite true. The Card Game was a license and so is the computer game, right?


Neither of these competes directly with their main business of making miniatures. They are not a card game company of a computer game company. It is easy to make deals for those things for them since they make money with no risk to their main business. Lisencing to someone to make miniatures and thus compete with them (even when the same company) is an entirely different matter.

Note that the competition they dont like is games and miniatures that detract from buying core games. Thats why FW thrives since their stuff promotes more sales of core game miniatures.

We can debate what would happen to FW if their "epic" department suddenly sold more than their 40k department.

I'd bet we'd see some "restructuring" very quick.

GW are their core games and no more. Anything that compromises that leads a short life.

Thats why if you enjoy GW's "minor" games you really need to provide for yourself. Otherwise you will be disappointed...

..frequently.

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:09 pm 
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I am not blaming everything on Jervis, but I do think he made some wrong decisions.

Keep in mind, when I first read online that Jervis was going to make a new version of Epic and let the players be involved with the playtesting, I wrote him a long email on what I thought were the pros and cons of the previous Epics, and what I would want to see in a new one. To my shock he wrote back and we exchanged a bunch of ideas before the playtesting forum even opened. It was great because Epic is by far the system I've played the longest and the most of.

But Epic A is just missing things that I loved about the previous editions. I don't care only about the ruleset. I like entertaining fluff and most of all, the minis.

The first mistake I think Jervis made was recycling the old Armageddon battle. Geez, do we have to fight this one more time? It is uninspiring. I would have rather have seen something more open-ended. Plus, Space Marines, Imperial Guard, and Orks is a little boring. That's two human armies versus an Ork one. Woopy-doo! Epic40k included comprehensive army lists for five armies, each with many more minis that the current ones.

The release schedule is crazy. Either commit to getting out the minis or dont do it at all. Don't waste players time with the Baran when people really want Chaos and the Eldar, Tau, or even Necrons. That builds excitement. If Fanatic ever does get around to releasing the Necrons for Epic 5-6 years from now, is anyone really going to care???? A couple of gamers here and there and that's it.

Those decisions were Jervis's strategy, not some jerk in GW. I give credit to Jervis for trying, but he lost my attention and I LOVED Epic.

Imagine if Epic A was released with the rules for the Space Marines, Chaos, and the Eldar right from the beginning. Or the Space Marines, Orks, and Eldar. They are more exciting. He should have released rules for all the existing core armies right in the beginning and then do poo like the Feral Orks and Baran years down the line. It was like he was trying to spread out the lifecycle of Epic A to keep interest in it and it doesn't work. Most of the minis aren't going to change either, so just re-release them. The Baran. . . god what a waste.

Fanatic's site sucks too. I would handle it completely different. And to say that enough people aren't online is crazy. Wizkids and Wizards of the Coast don't have any problems and they rely heavily on their sites to promote their games, regardless if you can find their products everywhere.

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:16 pm 
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Hi!

Magnus, you assume that GW actually WANTS to target the older gamer crowd. All evidence and marketing devices point against that. As you point out the core games are mainly targeted to a younger age group. This decision was due to the fact that younger audiences are usually quite fickle and usually have short commitments towards their interests. This is great for GW, becuase they can "turn around" their customer base every so often and sell the SAME stuff all over again to another new customer base of the same age.

They have successfully done this for years. Further more I have seen and read actual retailer (store owner) propaganda that instructs store owners to "neutralize" older gamers becuase they dont buy as much, complain too much and have a negative impact on sales to new customers.

GW consistently eliminates, downplays and generally does not support any game or minis line beyond their core line because they dont cater to their target audience that gives them the most money.

To have a line like epic, that appeals to older gamers (not their target audience), or worse have it sell well, detracts from their goal of having people play and buy their core games and detracts from their true target audience.

What the older age groups like to buy is irrelevant since GW has restricted the their market to those games and ages groups they have found most profitable.

So my original point stands. Anything that dtracts from core game sales gets canned.

Primarch

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:44 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 01 2004 Dec.,22:16)
. Further more I have seen and read actual retailer (store owner) propaganda that instructs store owners to "neutralize" older gamers becuase they dont buy as much, complain too much and have a negative impact on sales to new customers.

So they were referring to me then....

That picture of an older gamer certainly has a familiar tone to it...

:cool:





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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:26 am 
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Hi!

:D I know what you mean Jimbo. When I read it (the store owner and I s=talked alot since I was the only customer he had that was a previous store owner, heck I even sold him old stock when I finally closed down...), I also told him GW was refering to me! :D

Gandlaf, I agree with you (thats becoming a habit isnt it? :;): ).

I didnt bother with participating with Epic A's development mainly on the grounds of the poor marketing strategy (focusing on armageddon, limited model availability, focusing on some armies, while ignoring more important ones like chaos) and not starting the rules design from scratch (starting design from the husk of epic 40k pretty much doomed any chance putting netepic respurces behind it).

The only thing I disagree with you Gandalf is that it was Jervis's desicion as regards to the release schedule. I just dont see him with the power to control resource allocation. He's just a peon (albeit a glorified one), with no real decisional power on how, or how much can be alloted for marketing and availability.

I do blame him for promising more than he could deliver. I'm still waiting for that limited run of plastic beetleback titans.....

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:59 am 
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They want to "neutralize" us, eh? Lock and load!  }:)  Long live Net Epic!  :cool:

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:54 am 
For the record I think the Baran army is frankly excellent and introduces 'siege' warfare in a way no other edition of epic has managed to do.

I thought the release schedule was a good idea. Core races generating new interest and variets of old keeping the - say - Guard fans buying. Also reduces the amount of development time needed.

Jervis promising too much? Having occasionally chatted with him throughout 4th ed's development the initial promise was 'new universal ruleset'. it got widened to a few new models, then covering all the new races, then adding varient lists and so on. I think all this was because the man was buoyed by the success of the game line. It sold far above GW's dreams. Even the concept of a free rulebook that people still went out and bought must have baffled them. The UK used up both theirs and the US's initial allocation of rulebooks.

Business model wise Epic has been well done - I don't think the profitability of the games were in question.

I know a few GW staffers who thought they were picking up signs the main studio were a bit narked at how fast Fanatic was generating background (new races, entire fleets in the case of the Tau to mixed reception accross the company etc etc).

Someone has commented about tightening the reins on the company. Hopefully this will lead to a repeat of the focus on the core product and pushing models, rolling WD and similar back in time. Can only be bad for them. :)

I lost interest int he main game a long time ago but I've continued playing epic (1st and 3rd ed's) and have nothing but praise for the effort and results produced for the 4th edition to come trotting out.


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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:11 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 02 2004 Dec.,00:26)
I do blame him for promising more than he could deliver. I'm still waiting for that limited run of plastic beetleback titans.....

He never said they would be plastic.......

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:06 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 01 2004 Dec.,23:16)

Magnus, you assume that GW actually WANTS to target the older gamer crowd. All evidence and marketing devices point against that. As you point out the core games are mainly targeted to a younger age group. This decision was due to the fact that younger audiences are usually quite fickle and usually have short commitments towards their interests. This is great for GW, becuase they can "turn around" their customer base every so often and sell the SAME stuff all over again to another new customer base of the same age.

Oh, I totally agree with you here: young is good for GW's marketing model, as they can essentially keep re-releasing the same things forever, and be sure they will sell them due to target market turn-over.

What I don't understand is why not pursuing other business models at the same time. Sublicensing SG games would work for them, because this way they aren't going to spend anything (or a very limited amount), and they make MORE money. Since the market segment is different, the impact on core sales would be minimal, I think. If you want to make sure, just avoid selling the sublicensed product in GW stores (so you won't have those annoying old timers around, complaining about GW shadowy practices etc.), don't mention them in White Dwarf, just pretend they don't even exist... while still getting money from them.

Young players buy and play WH40K-WFB, old ones buy and play SG sublicensed games. Where's the problem with this model?


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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:14 pm 
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Where's the problem with this model?


Fluff coherency for one. Either the 40K team validates all the fluff/special vehicles/special rules of the spin-off company (lots of work), or there is a large risk of fork between the "main" fluff (WH40K) and the spin-off (Epic, BFG...)

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:21 pm 
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Quote (CorwinB @ 02 2004 Dec.,13:14)
Where's the problem with this model?


Fluff coherency for one.

As if GW ever had problems in retconning.... besides, why are they supposed to care? It's not like fluff coherency translates directly into sales. A minimum of cohordination would be all that is needed to avoid truly massive divergence. Apart from that...

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:22 pm 
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Hi!

Magnus, I beleive there is NO problem with the model per se. Its more of a problem with GW philosophy. As we all know they believe themselves THE HOBBY. Refusing to acknowledge anything else. To lisence and let others produce stuff, even their stuff would be recognizing there is more out there than just GW.

They want complete control and are not willing to share, even if that means not making some extra cash in the short run from lisencing.

Its odd, foolish and dumb, but thats their philosophy and I dont see them changing it soon. :)

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:26 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 02 2004 Dec.,13:22)
Hi!

Magnus, I beleive there is NO problem with the model per se. Its more of a problem with GW philosophy. As we all know they believe themselves THE HOBBY.

Agreed, notice that they speak about GW HOBBY and not wargaming hobby these days.  :L

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