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So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .

 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:37 pm 
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Quote (Magnus @ 30 2004 Nov.,12:04)
Bob, this is all fine and good but you're forgetting two realities here:

Nope , I'm not. they are believe it or not exactly the points I'm making. Epic has by its sales proved it is a limited market product. It is the public who expect GW to support it and they certainly are not going to do that for such a limited appeal product. Remember the list members here are a very tiny proportion of gamers and even if each of us bought huge amounts we would not make the product viable. For games to generate a profit in a fully supported industry require major sales.
     The only way that a product like this can survive is in the way that companies like GZG operate . Almost one man bands . Although he has produced a background, The products are marketed as purely generic and usable in multiple backgrounds. The ranges he produces are extremely limited and sustainable. Expecting a full back up and professional marketing drive for what is purely a minority appeal gaming niche is totally naive. I believe to achieve what SG have in a financially driven atmosphere is quite remarkable.
     As to product cost this is a lamenatable fact in our ever increasingly expensive world. 25 years ago I paid 15 to 20 p for a 25mm historical infantry figure. Today for a decent figure I would have to pay nearer a pound. I would also receive a figure whose quality would have left me speechless 25 years ago. Quality does not come cheap. The bigger the company the higher the costs. Yes you can get cheaper product but from a one man band who sets his target at a market of maybe a thousand customers maximum and who markets his product by word of mouth or attending wargames exhibitions.    

As a final note I should add that I merely collect paint and convert the epic figures, I use some of the 40k background BUT I game using dirtside II rules from GZG. Although the only other GW game I purchase and play is BFG and I have no personal interest in GW I do believe that they have been a major contributor in keeping the gaming industry alive and thriving. they have also considerably raised the limits on what represents an acceptablke modelling standard both for figures and terrain. indeed I first learned about acrylic paints and drybrushing techniques from an 11 year old painting genius in a GW shop while visiting the UK some 15 years ago.

Bob DeAngelis


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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:48 pm 
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Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 30 2004 Nov.,12:18)
"If GW really wanted to make money they'd need to get in some NEW people. Without exposure _in the mainstream publication_ that's impossible.

warhammer historical rule book is now probably the 2nd most popular set worldwide. it achieved this by word of mouth among the histroical gaming community. They liked them, played them and encouraged their friends to do the same. In terms of popularity, DSII is probably more popular than Epic and DSII is a purely word of mouth product. Both are limited appeal. GW would be crazy to invest further in a product that doesnt fly after 3 attempts. Its first and second appearance certainly got the coverage you require.

Bob DeAngelis


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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:25 pm 
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Quote (chubbybob @ 30 2004 Nov.,13:48)
GW would be crazy to invest further in a product that doesnt fly after 3 attempts. Its first and second appearance certainly got the coverage you require.

Hmmm. I'm certainly not an expert at GW sales figures, but as far as I know, during the SM2/TL era Epic was the third GW product in terms of revenues and was far from being a failure. The decadence of Epic was due to two main factors, neither of which had anything to do with the SM2 sales figures:

A) The old policy GW once instated "we will always support WFB and WH40K plus a third product which we will rotate every year". This led to Epic being discontinued the first time. Needless to say, this is not going to do your product any good.
B) E40K failure. When it came the time for Epic to be re-released, it was under the form of E40K. I don't think I need to retell the sad tale here, as everyone knows it. E40K never went anywhere close to its previous incarnation, and Epic as a game line sunk.


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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:44 pm 
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Quote (chubbybob @ 30 2004 Nov.,12:48)
Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 30 2004 Nov.,12:18)
"If GW really wanted to make money they'd need to get in some NEW people. Without exposure _in the mainstream publication_ that's impossible.

warhammer historical rule book is now probably the 2nd most popular set worldwide. it achieved this by word of mouth among the histroical gaming community. They liked them, played them and encouraged their friends to do the same. In terms of popularity, DSII is probably more popular than Epic and DSII is a purely word of mouth product. Both are limited appeal. GW would be crazy to invest further in a product that doesnt fly after 3 attempts. Its first and second appearance certainly got the coverage you require.

Bob DeAngelis

Fourth, actually. And that is after the botched E40k. And the second edition _did_ sell well. The mass exodus came with E40k.

Whatever. I'm still not going to feel quilty.

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:52 pm 
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Today for a decent figure I would have to pay nearer a pound. I would also receive a figure whose quality would have left me speechless 25 years ago.


That's certainly why a large part of the current EA line is directly recycled from previous editions (Titans, for example), carrying a huge price premium ? A while back, I could get a Reaver for FF 75 (that's 11.5 Euros). Now, the exact same Reaver (not a new one with quality making me speechless) costs 25 Euros. The Chaos and Tyranid lines for EA will be the exact same models as before (to cut costs), and the management will probably wonder why they don't sell as well as the new SM line for 40K.

By feat of the (absent) marketing, coupled with the downright hostility of most GW employees (try organizing a game of EA, BFG or Bloodbowl in your local GW store), EA (and other Specialist games) is mostly/only appealing to the Old Guard (I started playing 12-13 years ago). So trying to resell stuff that nearly every one of us owns in large amounts already with a huge price increase is definitely not happening.

Saying it's the player's fault that they don't buy enough models is a logical fallacy : it's GW's responsability to build the market for its games. GW is not a charity, but neither are the players. I don't see why I should buy a 25 Euros Titan that I already have got just so they can recast the Eldar Titans (which I also own).

Do you think WHFB and WH40K would be such huge sales successes if all they did was recycle the old moulds over and over ?

As for 2), I'm inclined to agree with Primarch when he said that GW expects the Epic to sell as well as 40k WITH LESS SUPPORT. When it doesn't they pull the plug.


Agreed. If GW feels that EA has to be as profitable as WH40K but without providing the same opportunity to both games, then there is little players can do. I buy lots of EA stuff (around 150-200 Euros each month between GW and FW), but I can't make as much for GW than what kids are spending at my local GW store...


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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:47 pm 
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Hi!

Second edition epic had sales figures in the US between 7-10% of GW (according to retailer information pamphlets back then in 1996-1997 prior to epic 40k's release). Compared to a total 5% for ALL fanatic games. Thats pretty darn good.

Every company has standards for what they consider profitable. What maybe good for a small company is losing money for a big one.

In GW terms, if it doesnt sell like warhammer 40k, it gets killed.

Simple as that.

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:02 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 30 2004 Nov.,15:47)
Every company has standards for what they consider profitable. What maybe good for a small company is losing money for a big one.

In GW terms, if it doesnt sell like warhammer 40k, it gets killed.

This makes sense. What doesn't make sense is GW not sublicensing, like Hasbro did with the ASL line.


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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:13 pm 
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Or even making Fanatic its own, seperate company, which happens to share the Citadel plant, in a similar fashion to what they have done with Black Library and Forge World.

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:52 pm 
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OH that would be great!!! I'd totally love a Fanatic company!

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:02 pm 
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Hi!

GW does not license, make "daughter companies" or anything like that since simply put it does not want competition in any form.

Their whole philosophy is to get people to buy their core games, anything that detracts from that, even when the money is still going to to them, gets canned. Their company IS their core games and therefore their very existance depends on them so absolutely nothing, even their own minor games can compromise that.

Epic died the day it stopped being a core game.

Some of us are just stubborn and havent realized it..... :;):

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:17 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 30 2004 Nov.,13:02)
GW does not license, make "daughter companies" or anything like that since simply put it does not want competition in any form.

Not quite true. The Card Game was a license and so is the computer game, right?

They just must see a profit in it first. ?:;):

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:37 am 
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I think that there are some valid points here.  And I would like to add one of my own.  Here in the USA, marketing for EA was limited, the release delayed by 6 months, and of course, the idiocy of denying any independant retailer easy access to the line.  Also, refusal to allow any online sales onther than GWUS.  This is supposed to be quality marketing / support?  I am not going to rant/whine any more, but nor am I going to be blamed for GW's failure to attract new players (the ones who would really buy)  by attempting to skimp on marketing and availibility.  

my 2cents,

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:22 am 
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I think it is silly to blame anyone other then GW for the latest SG situation. Any real business person knows when they are supporting a limited product (Epic or BFG) vs. their flag ship product (Herohammer 40k).

I will not believe they (the suits) thought it would sell at 40k levels. Rather, I think the studio team disliked the loss of control SG represented and it was that ego that drove the spike through SGs heart.

ROI is not just about volume. It is about speed and percents. SG may not have sold as much as 40k, but if the ROI is right, it is worth doing.

Jervis is not to blame, We are not to blame, GW is. :angry:

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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:53 pm 
Warhammer historical - it would still be dropped by GW in the same way fanatic has been as it doesn't have the margins nessecery for them it seemed. Low expectations were exceded. indeed it was the basis for the fanatic set up and epic release.

because WE THE PUBLIC failed to pump in enough cash sales to make
>>>>>>>>>>>
Epic had 400% of of its projected sales. The sales projection was (and money model with it) warmaster.  Delays for mail ordered products were up to month as forge world and SG struggled to meet demand.

Epic had the sales, indeed it, BFG and blood bowl subsidise the other fanatic games.

Perhaps what we will see now is an increase for popular line sand decrease in unpopular line releases rather than a comitment to support them all.

Epic though in its present form has made a profit.


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 Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:32 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 30 2004 Nov.,22:02)

GW does not license, make "daughter companies" or anything like that since simply put it does not want competition in any form.

Their whole philosophy is to get people to buy their core games, anything that detracts from that, even when the money is still going to to them, gets canned. Their company IS their core games and therefore their very existance depends on them so absolutely nothing, even their own minor games can compromise that.

Sorry Peter, I cannot agree.

The model you hypothesize could only make sense if the target markets of the core and SG games were the same. I don't have the smallest amount of hard data, obviously, but it seems likely to me that this is not actually the case. The primary target for GW big three is in the 10-15 age bracket, whereas the specialist range mostly caters to the somewhat more refined taste of old-time gamers. I know I NEVER, EVER bought anything for WH40K (barring the old rulebook for fluff purposes), and my last WFB mini purchase was made many years ago.


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