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Epic:Armageddon to return?

 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:57 pm 
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I think these debates are useful for those who just wish to read some interesting info / opinion about his hobby. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:08 pm 
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In an "intellectual" discussion, all points of view should be welcomed ...

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:16 pm 
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Please go on. Did not mean to wind up anyone :).

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:42 pm 
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I don't think licensing out models makes sense for GW, for lots of reasons. I personally would never risk externalising anything that could reflect on my core products. Something always goes wrong and you are too disconnected to be able to control it. Next reason, you can't control whatever else that company does, they can sell other product lines and before you know it you're driving customers into the hands of a third party ready to buy their other products. That can never happen with video games etc because GW does not sell video games.

For all that opportunity cost is a big concern for GW and a reason they don't sell Epic even if they could make a profit from it, they do know how to make models so if they wanted them to exist they would produce them. That way they retain a lot more flexibility in coordinating with their core product lines, in production schedules, release dates, price points etc. and ultimately, a veto on quality.

None of this is to say that I don't wish GW would do it!

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:59 pm 
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I disagree that you cant control it. You can - as long as you have the correct documentation and legal papers in place signed and agreed by both parties.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:59 pm 
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I'm actually thinking that they'll do some one off boardgames from their previous catalog. The revamped Horus Heresy board game that FFG sold quite well. I could easily see them producing the Battle for Armageddon and Doom of the Eldar games quite easily.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:23 am 
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Berkut666 wrote:
I disagree that you cant control it. You can - as long as you have the correct documentation and legal papers in place signed and agreed by both parties.
Just because you have a theoretical power to act if things go wrong does not mean that things cannot go wrong, or even that you will be protected financially. If you've ever dealt with an outsourced IT department you know what I mean. Your SLA can be bulletproof but by the time you've bankrupted your former partner in a lawsuit the damage is done and neither of you has won. I'm not saying they don't work at all, but contractual terms are incentives, not controls.

Look at it this way. Things cost money. You can either pay for your own development, marketing, manufacturing, translation, publishing etc, or you can pay for someone else's. Outsourcing works by leveraging someone else's economies of scale, capacity or greater competence, meaning you do not need to get bogged down risking failure at something you are not good at. If by contrast you are good at something and you're having to stringently control what your partner is putting out, you have to ask yourself why you are not doing it yourself.

In the end though GW outsourcing model production doesn't make sense because GW is good at making models, they can do it cheaply, and they have already made the investments into doing it (people etc).

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:09 am 
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Kyrt wrote:
Berkut666 wrote:
I disagree that you cant control it. You can - as long as you have the correct documentation and legal papers in place signed and agreed by both parties.
Just because you have a theoretical power to act if things go wrong does not mean that things cannot go wrong, or even that you will be protected financially. If you've ever dealt with an outsourced IT department you know what I mean. Your SLA can be bulletproof but by the time you've bankrupted your former partner in a lawsuit the damage is done and neither of you has won. I'm not saying they don't work at all, but contractual terms are incentives, not controls.

Look at it this way. Things cost money. You can either pay for your own development, marketing, manufacturing, translation, publishing etc, or you can pay for someone else's. Outsourcing works by leveraging someone else's economies of scale, capacity or greater competence, meaning you do not need to get bogged down risking failure at something you are not good at. If by contrast you are good at something and you're having to stringently control what your partner is putting out, you have to ask yourself why you are not doing it yourself.

In the end though GW outsourcing model production doesn't make sense because GW is good at making models, they can do it cheaply, and they have already made the investments into doing it (people etc).


This is right out of how we teach this in business school. The classic make/buy dilemma, combined with the different kinds of costs associated with contracts.

(And this is very concisely put... mind if I quote you?)


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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:34 am 
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Ah, again I disagree. Outsourcing something (especially a service) cannot be compared to production of a physical product under licence. The misconception that they are similar is one of the main reasons things like outsourced IT fail. I agree 100% it is very hard to put a contract in place and monitor the level of service you receive from another company as it is subjective. ie open to interpretation by those using the service - one persons good service experience is not anothers.

However with physical goods it is easier to set quality, and indeed production, limits. ie goods will be produced to "x" standard and we will require "y" number of units per year. Hence the reason that outsourced manufacturing is, to a large degree, way more successful than outsourced services.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:23 am 
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wellspring wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
Berkut666 wrote:
I disagree that you cant control it. You can - as long as you have the correct documentation and legal papers in place signed and agreed by both parties.
Just because you have a theoretical power to act if things go wrong does not mean that things cannot go wrong, or even that you will be protected financially. If you've ever dealt with an outsourced IT department you know what I mean. Your SLA can be bulletproof but by the time you've bankrupted your former partner in a lawsuit the damage is done and neither of you has won. I'm not saying they don't work at all, but contractual terms are incentives, not controls.

Look at it this way. Things cost money. You can either pay for your own development, marketing, manufacturing, translation, publishing etc, or you can pay for someone else's. Outsourcing works by leveraging someone else's economies of scale, capacity or greater competence, meaning you do not need to get bogged down risking failure at something you are not good at. If by contrast you are good at something and you're having to stringently control what your partner is putting out, you have to ask yourself why you are not doing it yourself.

In the end though GW outsourcing model production doesn't make sense because GW is good at making models, they can do it cheaply, and they have already made the investments into doing it (people etc).


This is right out of how we teach this in business school. The classic make/buy dilemma, combined with the different kinds of costs associated with contracts.

(And this is very concisely put... mind if I quote you?)

Of course

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:04 am 
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Berkut666 wrote:
Ah, again I disagree. Outsourcing something (especially a service) cannot be compared to production of a physical product under licence. The misconception that they are similar is one of the main reasons things like outsourced IT fail. I agree 100% it is very hard to put a contract in place and monitor the level of service you receive from another company as it is subjective. ie open to interpretation by those using the service - one persons good service experience is not anothers.

However with physical goods it is easier to set quality, and indeed production, limits. ie goods will be produced to "x" standard and we will require "y" number of units per year. Hence the reason that outsourced manufacturing is, to a large degree, way more successful than outsourced services.

Fair enough, to each his own. I've no more insider insight than you, that's for sure.

I guess we are talking about slightly different models, i.e. you are outlining a scenario where GW is actually doing a lot of the work in designing the game, defining releases etc, maybe even designing the models, and only outsourcing actual manufacturing. That's a bit different to licensing a game a la FFG or video games. When I say risk, I am not talking about excess flash on the models, I'm talking about delayed releases, problems with stock, lack of consistency in the design of a range, all the myriad things that can kill a game. Why did Epic 40K fail? Was it because the models weren't good enough? I think the answer to that is a resounding "no". GW knows only too well it can mess it up themselves, so the idea that someone else would do better is probably not forefront in their thinking.

I would quite agree that the risks are much lower under simple manufacturing outsourcing. (And that is just how things get made in most large scale industries, because factories are expensive). Even so, what you have to recognise is that GW already has arrangements for manufacturing, they are good at it. Whether that is via production facilities they own or already outsourced to a third party. So who exactly would you outsource it to who can do it in sufficient quantity for cheaper? It might be that GW is limited in capacity, in which case it could make sense (if a suitable partner exists). But its not clear to me that the limitation is in manufacturing (as opposed to the design, publishing, management etc bandwidth required to produce a new game).

Anyway, personally I think it could work, and wish they had the agility to throw caution to the wind to do it. The small guy will be motivated to a good job by more than just a contract and that is often left out of the equation. I just don't think they really can justify it on a business imperative.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:45 am 
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Kryt - See your point now :)

I was looking at a model where GW licence a 3rd party to produce miniatures only for games that GW no longer manufacture. only models, not complete games.

Same idea as when a car company allows a.n.other manufacturer to build models that they class as obsolete anyway - ie Daewoo use to manufacture a car (who's name I forget) that was an old Astra under licence from GM/Vauxhall. It was 20 year old tech and therefore GM no longer saw it as competition. However GM developed the model many moons ago so Daewoo pay GM for every model they produce. Make sense? It wouldnt hurt GM's core business, it would just allow for the support of older games and in turn possibly keep us older hand more interested in future GW releases :)

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:58 pm 
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GW have been approached about licencing epic, and turned it down on the spot.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:36 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
GW have been approached about licencing epic, and turned it down on the spot.


I assume the response would be the same now they no longer produce the game..... but it may not be

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