Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies... |
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Tas
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Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...  Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 5:32 am |
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| Quote (primarch @ 21 2003 Aug.,10:20) | | Its funny that certain information is known but not acted upon quickly, even in war. |
It's one thing to know it, and another to rectify it...
What would the strategic consequences have been if the USN had withdrawn all of its' carrier force to fit them with armoured decks?
Catastrophic... 
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Tas
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Tas
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Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies... Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 11:17 am |
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| Quote (primarch @ 21 2003 Aug.,13:18) | | That may also explain the GW love for useless frontal assaults to engage in hand-to-hand combat. Very WWI-ish. Too bad they forgot tanks have heavy bolters and such which make those tactics very unlikely. |
Too bad! Haig, Hindenburg and their Great War contempories also forgot that tanks and infantry had heavy machine guns too... And those tactics WERE likely...
P.S.
Has anyone else noticed the screwy time thing going on? ?
Replies are being inserted before mine like they are being filed on local time when they are written, not GMT... Weird! 
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Tas
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies... Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:00 pm |
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More internet magic !?  
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies... Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:01 pm |
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Tas,
P.S.
Has anyone else noticed the screwy time thing going on?
Replies are being inserted before mine like they are being filed on local time when they are written, not GMT... Weird! |
I've noticed the same thing.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies... Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:03 pm |
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Well, that just shows how much I know about naval combat... 
I was apparently suffering under an americo-centric delusion that all the naval vessels were more heavily armed than armored. Go fig.
Alright. I take back my angry face and admit that it was my misunderstanding. Mea Culpa! (and thanks for the education)
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Neal
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies... Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:10 pm |
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Speaking of Titans since I really haven't joined this conversation yet...
In At-1/SM-1, I used my titans like big MBTs as the "tip of the spear."
By the time of SM-2/TL, I used Titans as specialized artillary. They get laboriously ,arched to a good vantage point and bombard the enemy with long range firepower until he leaves the field (x3 Volcano Cannons and a Plasma Destructor will do that!). Gargants were for amusement value in this edition other than the GutBusta (Nothing like a bowling ball to spice up the game!).
In Epic-40k, I used Eldar Titans a lot, but didn't use many Imperial Titans or other types. They weren't economical... 
Now in E-A, I use Gargants a lot of the time since they're one of the only really "hard" Ork units that can take a lot of damage. Their goal is to simply suck up as much fire as possible while the Ork gruntz advance, but too many opponents have caught on to this ploy and are ignoring them now! 
I tend to think of Titans as mobile bunkers or specialized artillary and use them to support conventional arms (armor and infantry).
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies... Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:13 pm |
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Generally speaking, Neal, your assumptions were reasonable, but as Tas said, things are usually never as "black & white" as they seem.
Before the "dash" to Baghdad, the rumor was that M1 Tanks were too heavy for the modern US Military, and then the paradigm shifted in a matter of days.
And the US Army & USMC rewrote the book, as decisively as the Germans did with their invasion of France in 1940... 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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primarch
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Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies... Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 8:40 pm |
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Hi!
Very true points all. One true maxim in war is that the way to victory is not only by beating the opponent with the best "breakthrough arms of war," but with he who comes up with the "breakthrough" tactics to go with those new toys.
Let us not forget that WWII Germans made their greatest gains and victories with INFERIOR equipment. The French Char B tank was better armored and had a heavier gun, the Stuka is a ridiculously easy aricraft to shoot down due to very poor armor and the ME-109 had an operational range inferior to equivalent fighters. There's no doubt the Russian T-34 had the tanks at the beginning of Barbarossa overmatched and yet Germany conquered all that territory.
The same is happening today with the US military. The weapons are sleek, efficient and deadly, but it's the evolution of tactics to exploit those new units that's making the US military a deadly adversary.
Titans have undergone quite a few "incarnations" and their use on the field has varied. I still beleive the AT-1 approach is the best since you could use them not only as fire platforms but also to go stomp infantry. Then again, the heart of the matter is personal taste.
Primarch.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies... Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:22 am |
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Yes, many people don't realize, that the French & UK Forces that faced the Germans in May 1940, had more and better AFVs, than the invading "Huns." But the Germans understood mobile combined arms mechanized warfare.
The Allies were fighting the last war, and suffered accordingly. And we have always saw Titans in a similar light.
It's logical, "realistic" and has some precedent in reality, i.e. heavy fire support for the ground troops. Move this large weapons platform into position and blast away! ?
But again, it is a matter of personal preference...
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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primarch
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Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies... Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:28 pm |
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Hi!
I dont mind a titan getting a pounding from ground troops who are suitably positioned in fortified areas and with heavy weapons. It the idea of a bunch of grunts running in open ground and "swarming" a titan I find to hard to swallow, that tactic should have ZERO chance of success, but we all know that most versions of epic allowed it.
Primarch
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dafrca
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Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies... Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:39 pm |
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| Quote (primarch @ 22 2003 Aug.,09:28) | Hi!
I dont mind a titan getting a pounding from ground troops who are suitably positioned in fortified areas and with heavy weapons. It the idea of a bunch of grunts running in open ground and "swarming" a titan I find to hard to swallow, that tactic should have ZERO chance of success, but we all know that most versions of epic allowed it.
Primarch |
I think this is the hard part of basing a game on d6 results. You jump in 16.5% with each "pip" on the dice.
If it was based on d% then you could offer those 1 in a hundred chances.
dafrca
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primarch
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Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies... Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:24 pm |
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Hi!
No question Dafrca, the d6 only game mechanic is so outdated. I dont know why GW persists in them, its not much of a difference cost-wise to make a bunch of d10's instead of d6's. Most game designers have moved on to higher die types, even d20, of like DSII using polyhedral dice in a mix.
Maybe someday they'll tire of d6's and produce a game with a wider probability range.
Primarch
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stormseer
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Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies... Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:31 pm |
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Inquisitor is a D10 system...?
-However that was a completely new game, so perhaps the designers agree with you Primarch, and decided on them for the very reasons you outline.... This makes me think- not being too knowledgeable on the rules, I'm interested as to wether Epic:A would have been suited to a D10 system...
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dafrca
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Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies... Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:11 pm |
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| Quote (stormseer @ 22 2003 Aug.,13:31) | Inquisitor is a D10 system...? ?
-However that was a completely new game, so perhaps the designers agree with you Primarch, and decided on them for the very reasons you outline.... This makes me think- not being too knowledgeable on the rules, I'm interested as to wether Epic:A would have been suited to a D10 system... |
As Jervis was starting over, he could have started with any die type and built the new rules around that die, but he ellected to continue with the d6. Not sure why, it could have been fine with any of the types.
dafrca
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primarch
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Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies... Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:52 pm |
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Hi!
As Jervis was starting over, he could have started with any die type and built the new rules around that die, but he ellected to continue with the d6. Not sure why, it could have been fine with any of the types.
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I think that is part of the problem. Technically he didn't "start over". He used epic 40k and started from there. Since that game used d6's so does EpicA.
Had he REALLY started from scratch...well...perhaps things "may" have turned out differently.
Primarch
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