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Variable titan configuration

 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:38 am 
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The problem with removing 'everything larger than a warhound' from the table is that then, to me at least, it's no longer Epic... it's semi-Epic or something.

To me, Epic is about mighty armies clashing dramatically on the tabletop, while depending on personal preference, one or two massive war machines slug it out overhead.

Take out the Titans, and it's no longer fully Epic, it's a game that happens to be a lot like Epic... and currently Titans are pretty damn thin on the ground anyway!


As to Jervis' opinion that he thinks the game system is the best he's ever done, I'd have to agree, Epic's system is easy to learn, hard to master, and has the fringe benefit of having some of my favourite miniatures across the GW/FW range.

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 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:19 pm 
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We didn't always use Titans but when we did we limited them to 25% TBL based on SM1 rules.  However, that being said, the AT1/CT rules for configurations were quite good ...  Standardize Configurations with acompanying points costs (as in AT1/CT), would work as it did in SM1/AT1 ... IMO

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 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:27 pm 
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One could however try to suggest some new patterns to default armies.


The problem with that is there are literally thousands of available configurations, and of those, hundreds of useful pattern configurations.

Far too many to point individually IMHO, and anything over two or three patterns would be unweildy anyway, far easier to have a common hull & seperate weapons ala the better Titan-featuring games.


After we finish up with the current poll, it might be interesting to run a poll on this issue anyway (Patterns versus modular costs), assuming that the vote comes out in favour of pricing Titans according to their armaments that is.





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 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:11 pm 
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As much as I hate to say it, I think Honda hit the nail on the head. Epic:Armageddon is not a Titan game. I've got a number of versions of advanced Titan rules on the go, but every time we playtest them, the whole focus of the game changes. It becomes a game centred around Titans. Now I quite enjoy that, but I enjoy proper E:A as well, and I think the two should be separate. Jervis' original plan was for E:A, AT and Airwar to be separate games whose only crossover was the miniatures.
So while I love the freedom to fit different weapons to my Titans, I've come round to the belief that Titans chosen from and army list's support section should be restricted to the currently available patterns. Of course, I still want to see a stand-alone Adeptus Titanicus, and will continue annoying SG in my attempts to make it happen.
Fully customisable Titans make sense for AMTL armies, because they have access to all the gear. But for other Imperial Armies (and Eldar/Nids/Orks too of course,) they would have to use whatever Titan was handy, regardless of whether that missile launcher with two turbo lasers was the best choice or not.

That's my opinion for today, anyway. :;):
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 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:57 pm 
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(Hena @ Sep. 16 2006,16:48)
QUOTE
The idea is that IG and Marine forces have only the standard configuration titans available to them,

That wasn't always going to be the idea with Epic: Armageddon however.

Originally it was wanted to bring back a variety of weapon options, but lack of funds scuppered this.

The current situation is the result of a shortage of money, not some intentional decision about game balance.


All other versions of Epic have had modular Titans in one form or another.

Only Epic: Armageddon has no modular weapon options, because there is no money to have the weapon models sculpted, and no money to put them into production.

It is Epic: Armageddon that is 'odd' in this regard, not the other Epic systems.

Epic: Armageddon has a hole in it. :(


Say 4 or 5 different weapon sets would be sufficient for warlord and reaver. Warhound could do even less.


You're talking 12-14 variant Titans with individual points costs by that stage. You might as well have individual weapons costs at that point... it'd take up a tenth of the page space and achieve a better result.



I still want to see a stand-alone Adeptus Titanicus...

Personally, I'm not all that interested in playing yet another large combat-robots game.

I'm interested in playing Epic.

6mm infantry, planes, tanks, superheavies, Titans. That's Epic, all sizes and shapes in one system.





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 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:41 pm 
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And E:A has all that right now. It may well have been the original intention to offer different weapons variants - but the fact is that the game works really well as it stands.
I appreciate your point about not wanting to play yet another giant robot game - but when you start to add extra detail to the Titans that's what E:A becomes, at least in our playtests.
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 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:50 pm 
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And E:A has all that right now. It may well have been the original intention to offer different weapons variants - but the fact is that the game works really well as it stands.


It works great, but I have one big bugbear with it; the Titans completely lack flavour.

Every Titan in every army is exactly the same... that's not how it is in the background, it's not how it was intended to be (Until SG ran outta money) and it's not how it is in every other Epic system.

I appreciate your point about not wanting to play yet another giant robot game - but when you start to add extra detail to the Titans that's what E:A becomes, at least in our playtests.

We've yet to begin playtesting your enhanced Titan rules in my gaming group... but the modular weapons we have been using have really given the Titans back their 'fun' factor, and havn't resulted in any game-slowdown at all.

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 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:42 pm 
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In evry standard sizes game (tah is around 3000-4000pkts) you will only see one titan (apart from the cheaper warhounds) and it will almost always the BTS goal.
I think this very important unit should be somewhat flexible which only different weapons will provide.
Look at the Ork an Eldar Armylists. Their Titans/Gargants have the option for different weapons, if only limited.
For Speace Marines and Imperial Guard this will suffice. I don't need the full spectrum of titanweapons, but the option to choose between 2 or 3 combos would be very nice and flavourful.

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 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:20 pm 
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Certainly a few different options would be welcome; after all, even dreadnoughts get a choice of weapons configuration.
I do understand about the Titans lacking flavour, and I agree, but I feel the way the game works ( the tournament game at least ) would suffer if Titans take a more central role. And with customisable weapons, we would see more Titans fielded. I'd start taking a Reaver every game at least.

As for a stand alone AT game, it really needs infantry and tanks to set it apart from Battletech etc. but then it's just a developed version of epic, and I think getting SG recognition for that kind of change to the core system would be all but impossible. They might endorse a stand alone game though, but then what do you do about tanks etc? My brain hurts!

With all this said, however, points costs for Titan weapons is still the only way I see of having more choices in the game and maintaining balance, and I applaud your efforts, E+C.
Regards,
Reaver





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 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:20 pm 
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Besides the FAQs in the end hint that there would have been more patterns, but not really a "build-it-yourself" kit.


The FAQ doesn't hint at alternative patterns. It flat out states that transferring the Adeptus Titanicus II rules*** would be an ideal place to start for broadening the Titan's rules.

I don't see why you refuse to accept that I don't want any modular titans to marine or IG.

You don't want, true, but I'm not sure that's even close to being a popular view, let alone a majority view, judging by the poll results so far.


...I feel the way the game works ( the tournament game at least ) would suffer if Titans take a more central role.

Quite possibly... but then again I have nothing against disallowing Modular Titans (Adeptus Titanicus 3) in tournaments as they are generally very restricted gaming environments anyway, I doubt Aeronautica Imperialis rules will be allowable in Tournaments either!


As for a stand alone AT game, it really needs infantry and tanks to set it apart from Battletech etc. but then it's just a developed version of epic, and I think getting SG recognition for that kind of change to the core system would be all but impossible. They might endorse a stand alone game though, but then what do you do about tanks etc? My brain hurts!

Epic is a mix of all the different types of units... that's what makes it so cool, that one army could be a massive infantry horde, while the other could be a Titan and a small ammount of highly elite units, while another could have more titans than you can shake a stick at.

It's the diversity of Epic that gives it strength, IMHO.



***Which includes modular weapon choices & individual points costs, incidentally.

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 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:24 am 
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We rarely use Titans in our Epic games ... we like futurist combined arms ... AFVs, Grunts, FA, CAS, etc ...   And we have not played Titan(s) vs Titan(s) in many, many years ...

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 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:41 pm 
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(Reaver @ Sep. 16 2006,16:20)
QUOTE
Certainly a few different options would be welcome; after all, even dreadnoughts get a choice of weapons configuration.
I do understand about the Titans lacking flavour, and I agree, but I feel the way the game works ( the tournament game at least ) would suffer if Titans take a more central role. And with customisable weapons, we would see more Titans fielded. I'd start taking a Reaver every game at least.

As for a stand alone AT game, it really needs infantry and tanks to set it apart from Battletech etc. but then it's just a developed version of epic, and I think getting SG recognition for that kind of change to the core system would be all but impossible. They might endorse a stand alone game though, but then what do you do about tanks etc? My brain hurts!

With all this said, however, points costs for Titan weapons is still the only way I see of having more choices in the game and maintaining balance, and I applaud your efforts, E+C.
Regards,
Reaver

I don't think infantry and tanks set E:A apart from Classic BattleTech... CBT has infantry and tanks too! ?IMHO, the differences come not through the background fluff, but in the rules themselves. ?For example, instead of manuvering your Titans for the extra +1 defensive DRM, you place them to claim objectives and gain a LOS and range on the formation you want to target. ?As long as you retain those rules that give E:A its feel, a Titan's-only game will still be distinct.

More on topic, I think that adding some additional variation in Titan weapons in the tournament lists is a good idea. ?I emphasize that it's the tourney lists we're trying to modify, as the non-tourney scenario section already suggests alternative weapon configurations. ?The difficulty, therefore, lies in finding ways of adding variation in ways that maintain balance. ?A variable weapons cost system can be made to work, but it has to be carefully examined to prevent abuse. ?Specifying a few variations of each chassis, but not allowing variation outside of these variants, makes it easier to prevent abuse; you can even give each variant a different cost (perhaps calculated from the variable weapons system!) to help maintain balance. ?Remember, it is just as bad to define a variant that no one takes because some other choice is "obviously" superior. ?Giving the "obviously" superior variant a greater cost restores balance by giving players a reason to choose the "obviously" inferior choice.

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