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Epic:Armageddon to return?

 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:46 am 
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Sawbones wrote:
I think a smart move would be for GW to do a 6mm scale Horus Heresy release given the hot sales in HH books, 25mm scale releases, and fan fascination with the HH period . Could do new models that everyone would want Chaos, Space Marines, Imperial Guard...


Wasn't this the premise of the original AT/SM game? That was all supposed to be about marines fighting marines during the Horus Heresy.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:04 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
Sawbones wrote:
I think a smart move would be for GW to do a 6mm scale Horus Heresy release given the hot sales in HH books, 25mm scale releases, and fan fascination with the HH period . Could do new models that everyone would want Chaos, Space Marines, Imperial Guard...


Wasn't this the premise of the original AT/SM game? That was all supposed to be about marines fighting marines during the Horus Heresy.

Matt



Now, that would be cool, remodeled marines in earlier armour, not to forget all the early crusade era vehicles, i would definitely buy into that.

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:27 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
Sawbones wrote:
I think a smart move would be for GW to do a 6mm scale Horus Heresy release given the hot sales in HH books, 25mm scale releases, and fan fascination with the HH period . Could do new models that everyone would want Chaos, Space Marines, Imperial Guard...


Wasn't this the premise of the original AT/SM game? That was all supposed to be about marines fighting marines during the Horus Heresy.

Matt


Yeah, but as I recall that was largely to explain why both sides had identical titans in AT. Think about it. The Horus Heresy exists solely because of Epic. And solely to save money. ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:05 pm 
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midian wrote:
Please, explain me the logic in releasing a limited box edition in 10mm to "attack" a marginal market (vs. 28mm) as is the 6mm market.

GW is not worried about Dropzone commander or Distopian wars. Those games are not selling anything in GW terms of business.Their only competition in sales is PP WarmaHordes. No need to react.


OK this is very long, but you DID ask for it. ;)

Ultimately, this isn't a story about revenue, it's about profit-- in this case through margins. How does a company maintain high margins? Competitive forces tend to erode them over time. Resisting this requires some kind of sustainable competitive advantage-- what Warren Buffet calls "building a moat around your business". Modern business scholars have identified several sources of sustainable competitive advantage, but GW runs their business using the 80's era business-school playbook. For that we go to Michael Porter. Without going into detail, the idea is to structure the industry such that there are significant barriers to entry for a potential rival. Even the threat of a possible entrant can drive down prices, so industry structure is all-important for this school of thought.

GW builds these barriers using four basic building blocks. The first is their background-- it's distinctive enough that they can get IP protection but generic enough that a big setting can let them cover all the popular tropes. It also lets them threaten legal action if someone's generic power armor troops look too much (or can be argued look too much) like Space Marines (tm). The second are their retail stores: a customer who never sees other brands or games won't be tempted to buy them-- plus they crowd out the independent game stores, which any new game company would have to launch from. The third are the events: game store events and grand tournaments, where third party minis and games are a no-no. Finally, there's the rule set. If all your friends play 40k at GW stores, then even if you hear about some other game and buy the minis, you're unlikely to find another player to game with. Even if you do, GW games are filled with tricky and ever-changing loopholes. A player who's climbed the learning curve of 40k and only plays that loses their advantage if they're trying to learn BattleTech, Stargrunt, or Uncharted Seas.

A hypothetical competitor has two possible choices if it wants to muscle in on GW. The first is to challenge them in their central market: 28mm. GW already dominates 28mm. Any counter-moves they make in or near that scale, they'll do using one of their flagship products. As we can see, it's a forum where they have all the muscle, so it's not a likely area of attack.

So the much more likely line of attack is in a peripheral market. That is, another scale or another game concept. In that situation, GW doesn't need to dominate every conceivable game. Instead, they can use the logic of how new products emerge. New products, like fashions, fads, and political and religious movements, expand according to what sociologists call a "contagion model". They grow exponentially. So GW tries to snuff out emerging game fads by releasing a "vaccine" that dampens the enthusiasm among their core player base. "Ahh, uncharted seas? Yeah, pretty cool, but I just bought Dreadfleet so let's play that at the GW store." The game doesn't need to be out for long, because by the time it's off the shelves, the growth rate of the potential rival has already peaked.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:27 pm 
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Ulrik wrote:
midian wrote:
GW is not worried about Dropzone commander or Distopian wars. Those games are not selling anything in GW terms of business.Their only competition in sales is PP WarmaHordes. No need to react.


They might have been scared by PP. Once upon a time Warmachine wasn't selling anything big either, but GW left a niche that they exploited and became a big competitor. Maybe they don't want DZC or Dystopian to ever get big enough to worry about.


Hi!

This.

Gw has learned not to leave a vacuum. Right now this is one for 6mm and 10mm. To not repeat the same mistake in giving an opening as they did with Privateer Press, they can head it off with a game offering in 6-10mm scale.

GW does a lot of reactionary stuff, but they do learn and preempt when they can.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:09 pm 
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My prediction for what its worth...

GW has a gap in its revenue stream between the end of school hols and Christmas. By filling it with pet projects from the design team they keep the team moral high, give sculptors a way to prove themselves and give a small boost to sales in the lull.

2010 - Spacehulk - Winner !

2012 - Dreadfleet - revamp of man-o-war - woops ! But hey still a chunk of cash.

2013 - inquisi-mund-frontation. 28mm 40k skirmish - aka 40finity.

If they keep this up, expect to see blood bowl soon and i wouldn't be surprised to see a revamp of Adeptus Titanicus or even Gorka morka, mordhiem, quest, etc at some point.

What ever it is i expect it will follow the same format as above.

1. One off box game.

2. Fancy pants, characterful minis that people buy on cool factor alone.

3. Based on one campaign with tie in novel (remember JJ said epic40k failed because it wasn't "set" in a campaign.)

4. Limited play time, so players get bored and back to 40k in time for Father Christmas.


A new AT set in the HH seems ideal for this. 4/5 imperial titans - 4/5 chaos - all one-off minis with a set story campaign. Simples. 6mm Titans will exploit the market that would like to buy FW but can't afford it, and would sell like spacehulk hotcakes. That said, whatever they do release it won't be different scale versions of existing 40k/WH minis - they learn't that epic, ]I[ and WM just ate into their core market.

I'll go find my 8-ball...


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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:27 pm 
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Would require a scale change IMO to ensure there's no back door entry and you need to buy it. To be honest, some high detail small (say close to the scale of 40k) plastic titans dukeing it out on a boardsgame/wargame hybrid ala Dreadzone would actually be pretty kool.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:07 pm 
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Yeah 2mm might work. Would allow more minis in the box and a kinda mechwarior look on the table. However I don't think they are woried about changing scale too much for a number of reasons :

1. None of these games are sold on the quality of the rules - its all about the minis. Having them at 6mm (or similar) would have an advantage of instant buy in from older epic players too (which they had with spacehulk but partly doomed dreadfleat - there was nowhere to get double use out of the ships.)

2. 6mm would give a real wow factor. I could even see 10mm, but it would probably make the box too big.

3. I think it could all be about the personalisation of your titan a'la AT - therefore the kits would be multi part (as AT with dozens of snap together options.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:24 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Would require a scale change IMO to ensure there's no back door entry and you need to buy it. To be honest, some high detail small (say close to the scale of 40k) plastic titans dukeing it out on a boardsgame/wargame hybrid ala Dreadzone would actually be pretty kool.


Hi!

This is my take as well.

I feel space hulk did well because the terminators and genestealers looked unique AND they could be used for 40k. As a one shot for sales that is okay. But its also the reason space hulk got canned originally, too easy for 40k players to get around their horrid pricing schemes and get some nice minis (not to mention very nice board pieces) to use with 40k.

Blip, I think you could be spot on with the snap ones for titans, but I also think that would make it more likely to do in 10mm, since the model kit themselves would be larger and require less skill to put together (ideal for their adolescent market).

Also, if they did it it would almost certainly be a game with titans, no infantry, maybe tanks, if at all.

I think from GW's standpoint a 10mm boxed set with a handful of titans per side (set in the horus heresy which is popular now) with expansions of more titans and weapons.

Although, a 10mm titan wouldn't be that bad, the current ones are under-scaled anyway, you could use them as true scale..... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:55 am 
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I think any of these alternative projects you (plural) describe would make fine products for GW, and I might even buy some of them, but would 10 mm titans etc. really start a rumor of "Epic to return in 2014!"

If an Epic stand-alone box per this rumor really does materialize next year, I'd expect it to look a lot more like Epic than like mini-sized titans on a gameboard. (I'll also be lmuch ess cynical about my chances of seeing the Easter Bunny afterwards, but I digress.)

Again, I don't think GW having just trashed the moulds from Specialist Games makes this event any less likely than it would be otherwise. GW was done with metals, and the moulds were shot. I know I got a few fairly lousy models from SG. There were even web pages showing the crappy qualiity models the moulds were turning out, with captions like, "Best toy soldiers in the world, my butt!". Even if GW had kept SG, a great number of the moulds would still have had to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:10 pm 
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S'Cipio wrote:
I think any of these alternative projects you (plural) describe would make fine products for GW, and I might even buy some of them, but would 10 mm titans etc. really start a rumor of "Epic to return in 2014!"

If an Epic stand-alone box per this rumor really does materialize next year, I'd expect it to look a lot more like Epic than like mini-sized titans on a gameboard. (I'll also be lmuch ess cynical about my chances of seeing the Easter Bunny afterwards, but I digress.)

Again, I don't think GW having just trashed the moulds from Specialist Games makes this event any less likely than it would be otherwise. GW was done with metals, and the moulds were shot. I know I got a few fairly lousy models from SG. There were even web pages showing the crappy qualiity models the moulds were turning out, with captions like, "Best toy soldiers in the world, my butt!". Even if GW had kept SG, a great number of the moulds would still have had to go.

-Allen McCarley


Hi!

You know what's funny we're so used to user names that we forget whom the actual people are (thanks for posting your name). I remember you from back in the day Allen, your an old hand! ;D

If you have not guessed, its it I Peter Ramos, from back in the old epic space marine days.

Glad to see some of the old crew around here. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:40 am 
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Peter!

No, I didn't realize that was you, but yes I remember you very well from the old 2nd Edition days. Great to see you again!

I tried to look for old names from the Space Marine mailing list when I first joined this forum. Neal Hunt was the only one I saw, but as you say it's hard to tell with screen names.

Really great to see you, and I see from your posts that your collection is now..... huge!

-Allen McCarley


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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:58 pm 
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S'Cipio wrote:
Peter!

No, I didn't realize that was you, but yes I remember you very well from the old 2nd Edition days. Great to see you again!

I tried to look for old names from the Space Marine mailing list when I first joined this forum. Neal Hunt was the only one I saw, but as you say it's hard to tell with screen names.

Really great to see you, and I see from your posts that your collection is now..... huge!

-Allen McCarley


Hi!

There's actually a few more of us, but as you point out, usernames make it hard to pick them out. :)

My collection has always been "huge", even back in the day, but it has a life of its own now and it keeps getting bigger, hence "the primarchload" moniker. ;)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:37 pm 
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Well ... we all hope for miracles ... but don't bet the farm on it happening ... Of course, I'm still hoping Amanda Tapping (from SG-1) stops by and we can compare tactics, and such ... ::) >:D I'd say there is a better chance of that happening (Amanda do you hear me ?!), then Epic 2014 ... :eh :whistle

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 Post subject: Re: Epic:Armageddon to return?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:47 pm 
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Legion 4 wrote:
Well ... we all hope for miracles ... but don't bet the farm on it happening ... Of course, I'm still hoping Amanda Tapping (from SG-1) stops by and we can compare tactics, and such ... ::) >:D I'd say there is a better chance of that happening (Amanda do you hear me ?!), then Epic 2014 ... :eh :whistle


Next week on Faeit:

"Rumors place Epic gamer Legion4 with actress Amanda Tapping! Sources close to the gamer speculate that the two might have been discussing Epic tactics, and that this might bode well for GW's 6mm line. If true, this represents the second time a sexy sci fi Stargate star crosses paths with the Epic community. Peter Ramos, whose restraining order from Jewel Staite expires on Jan 16 next year, says he has no comment until then, but was allegedly seen high-fiving L4 during a post-game pint."


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