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Armour in Epic:Armageddon

 Post subject: Armour in Epic:Armageddon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:17 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ Feb. 12 2010, 14:13 )

LOL, slightly different angle here.

I've gone off Russ Coys in a big way, never take them any more, super heavies are better all round. I'm loving Vindicator formations at the moment (infact anything with Ignore Cover) as they can double and still hit a barn door (when is infantry ever not in cover? or titans? So many inf get next to no save without cover!), they then have a good ff value to support an engage. I've also been including them in my Tacs, for 50pts you can't go wrong!

Honestly never thought I'd be promoting Vindicators?!

AVs are generally great in EA due to their speed and firepower, howevever they are expensive and the same attributes in cover hugging infantry are always more desireble. AVs aren't really all that much harder to kill than inf either (point for point).

Maybe formations made up of of Exclusively AVs or WE should not recieve BM for coming under fire but two for their first casualty or something?

Will SM tanks already get TSKNF of course. That's not enough BM help though for these formations in your opinion?

I'd give Vinds, Raiders and Preds walker!

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 Post subject: Armour in Epic:Armageddon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:25 pm 
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Quote: (alansa @ Feb. 12 2010, 14:10 )

Other than that, quite significant prices drops (as EUK have done) or some kind of other help would be needed.

Is a 25-50 point change all it would take to get people to use more Land Raiders and Predators?  I believe Hena has posted the same changes in the NetEA Marine lists, or something quite similar, but I thought people were still debating it.

Are the following formations people would use?

Beefed-Up Land Raider Detachment - 575 points
4 Land Raiders
2 Vindictors
1 Hunter
1 Librarian

Beefed-Up Predator Formation - 500 points
4 Predator Annihilators
2 Vindicators
1 Hunter
1 Librarian

Those are both using the current EpicUK point values, which, I believe, the NetEA lists are aligning to as well.

Or are people looking for something with more than four Land Raiders or Predators as a "base" formation?

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 Post subject: Armour in Epic:Armageddon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:25 pm 
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Quote: 

What benefit does a pure AV formation get?

Immunity to AP fire (the most common type of ranged attack in the game).

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 Post subject: Armour in Epic:Armageddon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Give em scout too. Here's how I see it, unlike tanks from other races (except perhaps the eldar) SM's are (or should be) amazing at ambushes from cover. While's everyone else avoids woods and rubble as dangerous terrain, the marines make the most of it and experience little problem.

doing more with less.

would that help?

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 Post subject: Armour in Epic:Armageddon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ Feb. 12 2010, 14:21 )

What benefit does a pure AV formation get?

Immunity to AP fire (as AT values tend to be weaker), speed, usually have more weapons per unit.

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 Post subject: Armour in Epic:Armageddon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:31 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ Feb. 12 2010, 14:25 )

Quote: (alansa @ Feb. 12 2010, 14:10 )

Other than that, quite significant prices drops (as EUK have done) or some kind of other help would be needed.

Is a 25-50 point change all it would take to get people to use more Land Raiders and Predators?  I believe Hena has posted the same changes in the NetEA Marine lists, or something quite similar, but I thought people were still debating it.

Are the following formations people would use?

Beefed-Up Land Raider Detachment - 575 points
4 Land Raiders
2 Vindictors
1 Hunter
1 Librarian

Beefed-Up Predator Formation - 500 points
4 Predator Annihilators
2 Vindicators
1 Hunter
1 Librarian

Those are both using the current EpicUK point values, which, I believe, the NetEA lists are aligning to as well.

Or are people looking for something with more than four Land Raiders or Predators as a "base" formation?

If pure numbers is the way to fix it, then the only viable option is the fully beefed up formation. What about those who want to use the base formation? what about less is more?

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 Post subject: Armour in Epic:Armageddon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:35 pm 
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Quote: (alansa @ Feb. 12 2010, 14:31 )

If pure numbers is the way to fix it, then the only viable option is the fully beefed up formation. What about those who want to use the base formation? what about less is more?

Well, for slightly more than the cost of the Beefed-Up Predators, you could have two "basic" Predator Formations... so, that's two activations to one.  

Perhaps Preds could come down to 250 points per basic detachment, but, again, that's the realm of playtesting.

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 Post subject: Armour in Epic:Armageddon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:37 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 12 2010, 15:04 )

To justify large ammounts of tanks under the current background, all you have to say is "this army represents several chapters combining their resources and using all their tanks. Oh and they all painted them the same for this particular battle."

Done.

Actually the Aurora Chapter and one of the Space Wolfes's Grand Company uses a lot of tanks.

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 Post subject: Armour in Epic:Armageddon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:37 pm 
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With the speed in inf verses AV comparison, it doesn't add up in the case of Marines.
SM inf don't need speed - they've got thunderhawks, teleport and drop pods - better than a move of 30cm (and already factored into the cost apparently).

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 Post subject: Armour in Epic:Armageddon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:43 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ Feb. 12 2010, 14:33 )

For Narine armour Vindis with walker would be the icing on the cake, or give them the same movement as Preds etc. Twin HB Razorbacks and Destructors getting +1 ff would also be good.

Yeah I don't think you necessarily want to radically improve basic stats, or make large formations--- but make em special in someway.

As to other races, I'm not so sure AV's need much help, since they can have large formations or have other benifits. Clearly you disagree in the case of Russ Coys - it has to be remembered that 10 4+RA units covered in guns is pretty awsome, but if you think that super heavys are better value then perhaps you would advocate a points increase for them?

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 Post subject: Armour in Epic:Armageddon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:44 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ Feb. 12 2010, 14:33 )

I was talking about armour in general across all the lists.

The thing is, it seems Marines are the only list where "armour" isn't seen as readily viable.

Biel-Tan, Steel Legion, Lost and the Damned, and even Siegemasters can all make good use of armour, and armour can be quite common and useful in their lists.

Orks and Black Legion armies do use armour, but it's occassionally "walker-types" or super-heavy armour, but armour isn't the focus of their lists, though it can be used to make viable armies, even if they aren't optimal.  Ork "armour" is *supposed* to be crap, relying on numbers, not quality; the Gunwagon is pretty close to providing its value as a 35 point unit, especially when mixed-and-matched with other units.

All of the above lists can and do make use of armour, so I'm not sure what the issue is when then in "general".  From my readings, it seems that Marines are the only army where it seems that the value of their armour sticks out like a sore thumb.




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