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E:A  Rise of the Dracon
Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:16 pm 
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CONSECTARI: Perhaps the Kroxigor could be their version of Terminator or Dreadnaught.

I was thinking that they could be attached to Skink formations, representing their association in FB. ?But then - if they're walkers - that would be repeating the old SM dreadnought problem.

Small transportable walkers, maybe; more like powered armour than a piloted vehicle. ?As you say - like terminators. ?Though would that affect the Kroxigor's reputation of size and strength? ?People might give a funny look if an E:A ?'Kroxigor' turns out to be a Skink playing at Space Marines.

CONSECTARI: Though the Stegadon might make a good seige tank, say with a nice horn shaped ram?

Could do. :laugh:
Meself, I was thinking of FB's mounted bolt thrower when I said SPG.

CONSECTARI: I thought that the different spawnings would just represent the difference between different types of infantry. ?

One spawn is standard Saurus, another spawn is special forces, etc.

Gotcha. ?I'll try to get a list of the FB spawnings, if you haven't got the book yet.
And I'll get a scan of the Slanni too.

CONSECTARI: DRM Rakkat Riders or if that doesn't thrill you

They don't, unfortunately. ?As 40K lizardmen or otherwise. ?Though they're the only DRM minis that don't.
I mentioned this somewhere: I was a dinosaur nut long before I was a wargames nut. ?One of my little ambitions is to set up a small company, selling a few different types of mini (stuff I can't find anywhere else, mostly), but specialising in dinosaurs and other creatures - prehistorics, some modern animals, dragons and others. ?Because, to be blunt, as far as I can see there's not much of a range out there, and the ranges out there aren't much; if you know what I mean.

But - as I usually have to wind up my little monologues - I digress. :;):
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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:44 pm 
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Blessed Spawning of:

Tzunki.  The god of water.  Aquatic and Initiative boost.

Sotek.  The serpent god with 'blood-fuelled anger'.  +1 attack on the charge.

Quetzl.  Protector and warrior god.  Better Scaly Skin save.

Tlazcotl.  Cold and impassive.  Immune to Psychology.

Chotec.  God of the sun.  More energy - greater pursuing distance.

Huanchi.  Jaguar god.  No movement penalty in wooded areas.

Tepok.  Coatl-god of magic and air.  Protection from magic.  Extra dispel dice.

Itzl.  Er... Saurus exude a musk that Cold Ones and Carnosaurs like.  Able to ride said beasties.

Blessed Mark of the Old Ones: single character only.  Allows a random number of rerolls per game.
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:15 am 
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Looks great so far.  I'm glad I've got someone with not only Lizardmen knowledge, but reptile expertise to lead me on this little trip.

This is assuming he's not a big floating toad


I def. DO NOT want any bloated old toads.  I want this army to be dignified and proud.  

DRM Ketzali should fill the role of Slann Priest or whatever it will be called.  This may mean he doesn't contribute quite as much to the stands overall fighting prowess.  I can't imagine robed guys being great fighters.

Temple Guard look very good.

How do you feel about making Oldblood its own unit?  A VERY limited upgrade perhaps?  Maybe not.

The daffy name of the gun comes from my continually noticing references to Chotec - old one/god of the sun

I LIKE the name Sunfire gun(well maybe the gun part could be changed).  After all, as our resident reptile expert, I'm sure you'll agree, if reptiles were sentient, they'd prob. be sun worshippers.

They have a move of 20cm because they can fairly scuttle along in FB

I like the idea of Skinks being the fastest thing on 2 legs.  I think you hit that one right on the head, whether anyone else agrees or not!  Javelin rifles cool name too!

Just a thought, not a criticism, what if the Skink Chief had an additional weapon intead of +1 FF?

I don't know if Skinks should have scout ability.  I kind of see them working in rifle squads.  What if we reserve that for Chameleons?  

My playing time is limited, but "I hear" the sniper ability is very powerful.  Giving it to all Skinks may not work.  I would like them to have some kind of ability to set them apart, but a 20 speed would be just that thing!

As move 20 might represent skinks always using a fast pace, perhaps their double & march should not increase at usual rate.  Say 20/35/50?  That might also quell some of the backlash.  

Chameleons look good.  Very good.

Though would that affect the Kroxigor's reputation of size and strength?  People might give a funny look if an E:A  'Kroxigor' turns out to be a Skink playing at Space Marines.


Kroxigor as Terminator would not nec. have to be a skink in armor.  It could still be a large powerful being.  The Kroxigor description states weapons have to be attached to Kroxigor to keep them from dropping them and attacking with tooth and claw.  Maybe the powered armor is there not only to boost abilities, but to keep them focused.

Based on the Spawning info you posted, Maybe the Spawn names would be better suited for use as formation names.

Examples:

Tzunki- Amphibious APC formation (Dracon could be the first army to have these!)

Quetzl- AV formations


Tepok- may have to focus more on the god of air aspect and make them air support formations

How do you feel about Terradons changing from a riding beast to a form of winged infantry w/ jetpack ability?




Great start Vermis, thanks a million!

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orangesm
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:40 am 
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Tredons as winged infantry would be cool.  There is also no reason we can not say that most of the Lizards in the army are sentient and from different species all engineered by the Old Ones.

The Tredons could care Sunfires and have Jump Packs, but lightly armored.

Tredons

Type         Speed     Armour     CC     FF
Infantry     25cm       6+          4+    5+

Weapon          Range                    FP                Notes
CCW          (base contact)   assault weapons        -
Handguns       (15cm)              small arms           -
Sunfire gun      30cm               AP5+/AT6+          -

Notes: Jump Packs

They move slower than most Jump Pack troops because it is their own wings.  Might also be possible to have them mounted in some sort of transport that does not need to land to allow them to "fast rope" into combat or onto an objective.  Just an idea.

I am trying to think of what the vehicles should be modeled liked, named, and how they should work. They shouldnt just be Eldar or Imperial vehicles with a different name if possible.

This project really is uncharted territory.  I do not have my copy of Rogue Trader around to see if it has anything.  Really should have the entire library of 40k knowledge on hand to figure out what all this army will have.

Just had a thought on some of the stuff.  These guys should be in direct opposition to the Necrons.  Similiar technological concepts possibly, only not dark, but very bright in their general structure.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:37 am 
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The reason I put Sniper on the rifle and First STrike on the unit is because as it stands right now Sniper on the unit means you can Snipe in fire-fights and melee attacks. Now, First STrike in both fits with them perfectly, like Warp Spiders. They appear as if from nowhere then attack instantly. Getting the upper hand both at range and in melee. But sniper in fire-fights is really not something I want to see on more units. (The idea of assaulting a russ company with say 6 stands of these guys and being able to lay out 6 attacks with First Strike and Sniper is absurd, IMHO.) Hence I put sniper on the rifle and first strike on the unit. To me Sniper is a weapon power, it's an effect of the weapon they wield. First strike, in this case, is a power of the actual unit itself.
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Legion 4
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:50 am 
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Yes, Good work Vermis !  Those are some good ideas there !

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dafrca
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:55 am 
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(consectari @ Jul. 16 2006,17:15)
QUOTE
I def. DO NOT want any bloated old toads. ?I want this army to be dignified and proud. ?

Not to start an argument, but why does the idea of a very old and respected leader who happens to be a toad with a weight problem mean the army can not be dignified or proud?

I think this is one of those ideas that gives the army character. And I think how you handle the stats and the figure makes all the differance between Clown and Respected Leader.

Look at the Orks. They have gone Silly to Serious and had little changes from an overall organizational standpoint. Storm Troops went from Nazi Charactures to serious combat vets for example.

It is the flavor you give the unit that will make a differance.

OK, I will shut up now.

dafrca

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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:51 am 
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@Consectari

I know a bit. ? I wouldn't go so far as to say 'expert'. :laugh:

Slann: I kinda agree with Dafrca here. ?I don't mind the floating toad, but I'm happy with either that or the DRM range (I was thinking Ketzali command for that, rather than the robed guys).
It reminds me of when I read the recent lizardmen list for Warmaster. ?Seriously - some SG guys are too well stuck in the past. ?The Slann there had the rules for the old mini, with a number of powerful attacks from the Temple Guard palanquin bearers. ?No provision for the new floaty Slann mini.
My point is that I wouldn't mind seeing an option for going either way. ?Like I said - perhaps allow the Slann to upgrade to Skimmer.
I agree about fighting ability. ?If he was a unit, any CC would be from the TG who happen to be on the same stand (not palanquin bearers :p). ?He'd contribute some decent FF to represent throwing his psychic weight around.
Although... if his unit was upgraded to Skimmer, it wouldn't engage in CC. ??? ?So it might need to reduce CC from the start, or use a different statline for a skimming Slann.
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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:53 am 
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What gives? ?My stat suggestion post was longer than this. ?But anyway - continuation:

Oldblood: sure. ?Would it make much difference?

Skinks: Chief - I think I worded that badly. ?I didn't mean add +1 to the FF stat, I meant FF Extra attack (+1).
Scouts - sure. ?Just a suggestion, meant for whittling down.
Sniper - uh, who's giving all Skinks Sniper? ?Y'mean First Strike? :)
Reduced double/march: Sounds okay to me. ?Is there a precedent?

Kroxigor: I meant that only if a Krox was just a walker vehicle. ?I just haven't got round to thinking of them as creatures yet. ?But now I'm getting the image of one in a yellow walking forklift, growling something about 'bitches'. :;):

Spawning: nice suggestions! ?Some thoughts from me later.

Terradons: I've been looking at the DRM Kray skimmers and thinking 'Terradon'.

@Orangesm

I agree about similar tech to the Necrons. ?In fact, I was wondering if a 'stepped pyramid' WE would seem too derivative. :laugh:
But, yeah. ?I think the remnants of technology the Old Ones left behind should be advanced. ?Maybe not as much as the Necs, but perhaps on a par with Eldar (being the other Old One servants); and built for the lizardmen - ?having a touch of FB's blocky South/Central American aesthetics, as opposed to the Eldar's curves.
Maybe I'm alone in this, but I really think DRM Kray vehicles would fit nicely. ?Convenient, yes?

@Ilushia

Understood. ?I agree that it makes more sense that way.
I still think that shooting from the undergrowth/rubble would merit First Strike more so than jumping out from said undergrowth/rubble.  But that's me. :;):
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:33 pm 
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These guys should be in direct opposition to the Necrons. ?Similiar technological concepts possibly, only not dark, but very bright in their general structure


I agree, better tech than even Eldar as Eldar developed their own, not gifts from Old Ones. ?It must be very limited though. ?Most tech will be on same level as IG.

why does the idea of a very old and respected leader who happens to be a toad with a weight problem mean the army can not be dignified or proud?


I can totally live with having 2 or 3 Slann options. ?Fat toad, Ketzali, and Ketzali command. ?That way I can choose not to take a unit I don't like. ?Everybody wins. ?:)

Oldblood: sure. ?Would it make much difference?

Either should be fine, just a suggestion.

Sniper - uh, who's giving all Skinks Sniper? ?Y'mean First Strike?
Sorry, my mistake. :blush:

Reduced double/march: Sounds okay to me. ?Is there a precedent?


Not that I'm aware of, just thought it would help quiet the angry mobs. ?I think this is a really characterful idea and very appropriate for skinks, so don't want to let it go.

getting the image of one in a yellow walking forklift, growling something about 'bitches'

Sweeeeeeeet! ? :laugh:

Terradons: I've been looking at the DRM Kray skimmers and thinking 'Terradon'

Hadn't thought of that! ?Very cool! ?
Could we maybe develope the FB Terradon into both units and keep the Winged inf.?

I was wondering if a 'stepped pyramid' WE would seem too derivative

This idea is great! And easy to build from diff sized square bases. ?I agree, it may be too derivative, but I say it's too good an idea to pass up. ?Let's do it anyway!

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I really think DRM Kray vehicles would fit nicely. ?Convenient, yes?

You are not alone. ?This is convenient, too convenient to pass up.

Thanks,

Vermis = Awesome

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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:50 pm 
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I just realized, much as I like the idea of Kroxigor as big reptiles in armor, do we have a way to represent that?  

I hate to place a limiting factor on this project, but why develope stats for a unit we can't field?  Model availability should be kept in mind.

Before we go much beyond a general concept in the developement of a unit, we should prob. discuss possible proxies.  

I'll admit, I've got nothing as of yet for the Krozigor armored version.

Warmaster Saurus or Kroxigor (if they aren't too large) for a regular version.

The easy stuff:
Slann= Warmaster Slann, Kray Ketzali, or Ketzalli command
Skinks= Kray scouts
Chameleons= Scouts again w/ camo paint job
Saurus= Kray light, med, or heavy inf.  (Oldbloods as heavy inf?)
Temple Guard= Kray personal guard

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dafrca
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:35 pm 
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(consectari @ Jul. 17 2006,09:50)
QUOTE
I just realized, much as I like the idea of Kroxigor as big reptiles in armor, do we have a way to represent that? ?

I hate to place a limiting factor on this project, but why develope stats for a unit we can't field? ?Model availability should be kept in mind.

I would keep the models available in mind, but I would not ignore the need of a particular unit just because either.

Think of the Necron Project. There were no models at all and now between custom made and third party proxies (DRM) the Necron army is a viable option.

Develope your list and then see what can be used.

My .02

dafrca

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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:08 pm 
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(dafrca @ Jul. 17 2006,13:35)
QUOTE
Think of the Necron Project. There were no models at all and now between custom made and third party proxies (DRM) the Necron army is a viable option.

Develope your list and then see what can be used.

Good point!

I may have solved my own problem though.

After closer examination, the Kray light infantry has a very lizardy Terminator look to them. ?While the medium and heavy inf. look less armored. ?

Maybe med inf. could be saurus and heavy inf could be Oldbloods

As Kroxigor are not that prolific, using light inf. as Kroxigor would also leave you with lots of extra light inf. to proxy for Tau!

The main draw back is the need to buy more of the ?med inf. lots than you normally would to fill out the very numerous Saurus ranks.

Again after closer examination, the Human/pax AV have a very blocky look to them. ?I don't know if this is the look Vermis had in mind, but I think it fits.

What does everyone think of the Andy Voran and Vorace as lizardy type walkers?

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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:29 pm 
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Some more thought for your comments.

Dracon (Slanni?) comparison to other races

Intelligence;
Skinks= human level
Saurus= Ork level
Kroxigor= just below Orks

Technology:
Mostly equivelent to humans, with VERY limited access to Old Ones vehicles more advance than Eldar.

Army composition:

AV= about half way between IG and SM in number of units used.
Inf.= about half way between IG and SM in number of units used.

Ability:

Skinks= maybe just an armor save better than guard, but better shots
Saurus= about Ork level
Kroxigor= slightly above Ogryn

Army speed= slightly less than SM, more versatile, able to engage in assaults, but also with a strong AV punch.

I really see them on the falling on the scale between Guards and Marines in alot of areas.  

They are a race of engineered warriors designed to be good at fighting wars (like IG) AND battles (like SM)

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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:36 pm 
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orangesm:  Might also be possible to have them (Terradons) mounted in some sort of transport that does not need to land to allow them to "fast rope" into combat or onto an objective.  


This is a great idea!  The 40K version of Terredons could be winged inf. or just skinks w/ jump packs, but they come out of a skimmer like the "Kraytonian Attack Skimmer"  (We'll just call it a transport skimmer instead of attack skimmer).


orangesm:  This project really is uncharted territory.  I do not have my copy of Rogue Trader around to see if it has anything.  Really should have the entire library of 40k knowledge on hand to figure out what all this army will have.

I can't image that on this board, we don't HAVE access to the entire library of 40k knowledge.  There are some serious veterans around this place, if we could just get them to drop by this topic!

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