Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 3 of 5
  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Aircraft Sniping in E:A
code_ronin
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:56 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:51 pm
Posts: 127
Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 04 Mar. 2006 (05:21))
You are slightly off with your analysis of the letter of the rules.

Take a different example. A shadowsword is in the middle of a scout formation that has surrounded it. It is not in any Zoc so shoots. The furthest away unit is the one in its front fire arc, making the 'front' of the fomration. behind it. It cannot shoot this target and can only shoot the one furthest away from itself. As this is the only 'closest potential target first' that is the one you shoot with the TK gun.

The problem with this is that the SS does not shoot a unit; it shoots a formation. Once it obtains a hit, it is allocated to a unit that is eligible to be targeted.

That's one of the problems with this discussion. The word "unit" has a very specific meaning and is not inter-changeable with "formation".

@Hena: I like that idea too.




_________________
Have keyboard, will travel.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Tactica
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:01 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
Quote (Hena @ 04 Mar. 2006 (01:58))
Well add the 'unless engaging' if wanted. But in general as engage allows the ignoring the zoc then it should apply to this as well.

Edit:
Rulebook section 4.2.5, page 51 says
Air Assault: Transport aircraft may choose to land as described above, and then it and any units that disembark are allowed to fight an assault instead of shooting. If this option is chosen then the aircraft and any units that disembark may enter enemy zones of control as if they were charging.

@Hena (as well as Honda, TRC, and Code Ronin),

I really like this idea Hena. It solves quite a few problems actually. I think its much more in line with the spirit of the rule in fact.

I also think in infuses a be of KISS into the aircraft game.

Unless others can blow holes in why this shouldn't be in the game, I think GLane and the Epic Review committee should put this into the experimental rules at once!

Cheers,

_________________
Rob
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:41 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Quote (code_ronin @ 03 Mar. 2006 (23:00))
Quote (Ginger @ 03 Mar. 2006 (22:39))
While I don't like this any more than you, 1.9.6 says:-

"Hits are allocated ?from the front to the back? of a
formation. Note that this is the opposite of suppression.
AP hits can only be allocated against infantry units, and AT
hits may only be allocated against armoured vehicles. Hits
must be allocated to the closest potential target first."

By putting the A/c in BtoB with a unit, doesn't that become the first to be hit, with other hits being allocated away from the A/c on those units within it's Field of Fire?

The term "closest" is used to help you determine which unit in the "front" is targeted first.

That is a really big stretch, simply from a reading comprehension standpoint and requires ignoring all contextual clues regarding use of the English language.

"front to back" is in quotes because it is a general description of what happens.  The specific procedure is outlined without quotations in explicit terms - closest potential target first.

We quote things to give them titles or to denote paraphrasing or other forms of simplification.  We also quote things for explicit citations.   We do not (at least not in a grammatically correct use) quote things to provide emphasis.

In this case, the conventional use of the English language  means it is clearly a descriptive term - a paraphrase - of a process, the details of which follow later in the paragraph.

The convention is used all the time in writing directions or instructions, e.g. "First, connect the widget to the thingamjig.  Take Wire A and insert it into Socket A."  Clearly "connect the widget" is only a general description given as an introduction and the technical how-to is the part that follow.

This is an instruction manual on how to allocate hits.  Same thing here.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:48 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Re. aircraft entering ZoC:  The idea of aircraft being screened by pickets is absurd.  Of the two issues - sniping or screening - I can't say that I would favor one over the other.  Neither is ideal.

===

As far as suggestions on how/what to fix, I have none, short of completely scrapping the idea of on-board aircraft, which I find increasingly appealing.

E40K rules anyone?

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Tactica
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:46 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
NH,

I think your last post is a bit on the harsh side.

First, I think Hena's idea has quite a bit of merit - clearly from this thread, I'm not alone either. If I had to pick between picket and sniping, I'd take picket all day long - but that's besides the point ?- if we can avoid both issues, we should. I don't want picket scout defenses for E:A either.

Perhaps we could refine Hena's suggestion a bit.

1) we could describe that an aircraft could not land in such a way that an imaginary line could not be drawn from two units in the same formation and pass through any part of the aircraft model - thus, removing ZOC from the equation all together.

2) We could say that aircraft must be placed on the field and at least 5cm away from any enemy models - also eliminating the ZOC from the equation.

Now these two concepts would get a bit more wordy than Hena's suggestion, but they work to 1) keep aircraft out of the middle of enemy formations, and 2) avoid the picket defense.

I'll leave you word smith types to come up with the proper language here.

OK, 2nd issue - and maybe this should go into a second thread... the main flying rules have a few problems but its not a lost cause by any measure if the EA rules committee would get their act together and make some commitment to fix the current 'turd' - to use your language. My suggestions for turning a 'turd' into 'fertilizer' are as follows:

1) Eliminat sniping - see this thread. Solves character or key unit targetted aircraft approaches.

2) Eliminate landed transport capable fliers from being able to hold objectives. If the masses want them to contest, I guess it could be explored, but holding them is a no brainer. Just remove the possibility and be done. This would solve the Orc Landa, Marine Thunderhawk, Eldar Vampire, and Tau Orca transport issues some are concerned with.

3) CAS and Intercept orders in E:A main rulebook should be more effective. Either enemy armor needs a -1 or the chance to score a hit needs to be at +1. Solves the relatively limited use of fighters and gives the models some teeth vs. the targets that are supposed to be weeker and feebler against the fighter and fighter/bomber aircraft instead of putting them all on the same playing field.

4) Moving flak should be penalized and/or stationary flak should be awarded. Either subtract 1 from the chance to hit if the flak formation has moved in the current turn, and/or add +1 to hit if the flak formation forgoes any movement in the current turn. Gives all generals an ability to make 'better' use of their flak and penalizes the abstract use of redeploying flak and somehow having it just as effective as those that remain stationary for the duration of a hypothetical 10 minute turn.

Their may be others, but I think all of these four 'ideas' should be entertained to some degree to resolve the current aircraft in game situations. They would also allow the developers to keep the craft popular and usable in the main game without crippling the joy of the ground warfare we've all become fond of.

Cheers,




_________________
Rob
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:43 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Quote (Tactica @ 06 Mar. 2006 (15:46))
NH,

I think your last post is a bit on the harsh side.

Fair enough.  No offense meant.  I was just being flippant.  Post edited.

I'd rather see the entire air system scrapped and rebuilt with a more abstract version.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Honda
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:42 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

I'd rather see the entire air system scrapped and rebuilt with a more abstract version.


So would "later" be a better time to ask for Predator UAV's carrying Hellfire AT missiles?

:/


_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
GJLane
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:44 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:31 pm
Posts: 8
WOW ... a 'warm' topic here.

The thread was setup to address a specific issue ... the use of aircraft position and arc of fire to 'snipe' specific units by making the them "closest unit" and therefor the first unit vulnerable to fire.

Several people have posted here saying this is a problem, but others have posted saying they have not seen this problem in play.  The primary reason for posting was to determine if this problem is either/both seen frequently enough and causes enough negative impact on the game to warrant a change in the rules.  I am personally not yet convinced on this point.

A suggestion has been made to control the abuse of this tactic by limiting the position of the aircraft which is on ground attack in relation to the formation under attack.

Let's keep focused on these two points ... Is it a bad enough situation to have a rule to to 'fix' it?  And, does the suggested rule 'fix' the problems with minimal unintended consequences?

Believe me, there are a lot of opinions about air in EA.  I have at least two or three myself  :D   The ERC and Jervis have discussed minor changes and some major ones.  I think you will see some experimental rules options to discuss on this score in the next month or two.  I am not going to go into my opinions right now, as this thread should focus on the two questions listed above.  I think I will run a poll thread on the SG forum to see where we stand on the first topic.

_________________
Greg Lane
Epic Armageddon Rules Champion
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:07 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
I wouldn't equate Hena's idea with pickets - it is still the same formation under attack, no-one is suggesting allowing another formation to screen.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
semajnollissor
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:55 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 pm
Posts: 1673
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
For the current "official" army lists, I really don't see how aircraft sniping is a problem. It might be annoying, and it certainly seems unrealistic, but I don't think it is all that big of a deal. In the described situation, the main target of the attack usually only takes one hit (the rest get distributed around), and [against current official aircraft] they get their armor save. Then, the situation has to successfully repeat several times (with the planes successfully surviving all the flak they have to fly through to get so close to begin with) before the tactic has a major impact on the game.

Personally, I'm more annoyed when someone sets their planes off at their plane's max range and approaches in such a way that certain "priority" targets get multiple hits (because only one or two units are in range). When that's the case, flak is usually out of range or is suppressed because its the only unit with range to fire (or it's in the "back" of the formation relative to the approach vector).

Now, I can see how allowing A/C to park in the middle of enemy formations would be a problem if certain playtest list become "official," because then things like the Vampire Hunter and AX10 will be around. But, those planes aren't official yet, and I'm betting that they might never be unless the air rules change wholesale (either that or they'll be pointed into oblivion, in which case they'll be paying plenty for this sniping ability). Perhaps if this sniping is only a problem with regards to the uber-planes, then that should be viewed as a problem with those planes - not as a problem with the basic rules.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
dysartes
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:00 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:16 pm
Posts: 908
2 things:

1, I'm not convinced sniping is as big an issue as people are claiming, and it seems fairly simple to prevent.

2, I can't see any reason whatsoever why ground unit ZoC's should affect aircraft that are flying, and vice versa.

_________________
The forgotten Champion - AMTL, baby!

Dysartes.com - Resources for the Modern Wargamer - Last updated: December 2004 - Next Update: In Progress

Sentinels are just young titans that haven't grown up yet!
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Honda
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

Perhaps if this sniping is only a problem with regards to the uber-planes, then that should be viewed as a problem with those planes - not as a problem with the basic rules.


Maybe the issue is not that the planes are "uber". Maybe it is how some people are using them.

We were having an off board discussion with some locals and I think the issue of sniping hasn't come into our play because:

1. We don't think that way (i.e. aircraft should snipe), only units with the Sniper ability should be able to do that

2. Don't believe that the rule should be played that way, even though an interpretation of the rule appears to allow it, as it isn't the intention of the rule (i.e. Sniper)

So, since some of us have been been playing the same aircraft as those who abuse the rule, we've come to the conclusion that that it is a user problem.




_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
GJLane
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:41 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:31 pm
Posts: 8
Quote (dysartes @ 06 Mar. 2006 (22:00))
1, I'm not convinced sniping is as big an issue as people are claiming, and it seems fairly simple to prevent.

How do you see that you could 'fairly simply' prevent the sniping being discussed here?

_________________
Greg Lane
Epic Armageddon Rules Champion
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:10 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
You bunch up leaving no space for the aircraft stand? Means you can be barraged though.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
GJLane
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:19 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:31 pm
Posts: 8
Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 06 Mar. 2006 (23:10))
You bunch up leaving no space for the aircraft stand? Means you can be barraged though.

What????

My view has always been that aircraft can be placed anywhere ... they do not need room on the ground.  They are in the air and can ignore ZOC ... so, stack them on top, if you need to.

But, that just goes to show ...  :/ we can all see things differently.  And, air is the easiest place for these common assumptions to come apart.

_________________
Greg Lane
Epic Armageddon Rules Champion
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 3 of 5
  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net