Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

Time to bring 30k into the fold? (Not a stand alone system)

 Post subject: Time to bring 30k into the fold? (Not a stand alone system)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:57 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:09 pm
Posts: 23
I am wondering if anyone has previously or is currently working on bringing 30k units and lists to the NetEA ruleset. I understand that EpicAU exists, and this is nothing against the system. I am looking for something compatible with current NetEA lists and would be legal in the tournament setting.

Has anyone done this? If not, would it be possible to start a group effort to make 30k legion lists?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Time to bring 30k into the fold? (Not a stand alone syst
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:07 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9494
Location: Manalapan, FL
The units are 100% compatible so nothing to worry there (for the most part as things like primarchs are really out there-better to treat them as Greater Daemons and be done with it). If you look at NetEA lists with relic stuff, it's literally the Epic30k unit copied verbatum (e.g. check out Imperial Fists)

Epic30k is just EA with additional USR/ASRs. Unrelated, Epic AU has decided to start playing with alterations of the original rulebook in their tournaments (basically they have decided to enforce new FAQs and are now playing with the idea of rewriting the rulebook entirely but that's not really anything to do with the HH stuff specifically).

Lists are a different thing entirely. So basically if you want a legion astartes lists for NetEA balanced against NetEA lists for Tournament Pack inclusion the best thing is for you to draft a list and start battle reporting it.
If you're just wanting NetEA to do a parallel set of HH lists for play against other HH lists in a tournament environment you probably could largely start with their stuff and branch from there and again, batrep it.

Basically better articulating the end goal would help us to help you

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Time to bring 30k into the fold? (Not a stand alone syst
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:52 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 5494
Location: Bristol
I’m intending to work up a more streamlined Net-EA Horus Heresy legion list in the coming months (a single tournament focussed generic legion list and probably not bothering with all the many variants). I have put a lot of thought into how to go about it and I have plenty of local epic veterans up for testing it I just need to find the time to write it up. I’m aiming for a list that could be tournament approved in time and that hopefully a player could show up to any tournament with and use to play against existing lists.

The Epic AU lists are ok but not great. They added a way higher level of detail with weapon options and special rules than is necessary or that previous Epic Armageddon lists have had. It slows the game down and makes it harder to balance.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Time to bring 30k into the fold? (Not a stand alone syst
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:42 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:09 pm
Posts: 23
My group has individuals who only want to play 30k, those who only want to play 40k and the rest who would like to play both. It would be convenient if we could all seamlessly transition between eras without having to worry about point balance, different rules and other deviations. *

My thought was to make a whole legion wide list then give each legion their units and primarch and give any special rules to all legions without getting into legion specific traits (so legion specific wargear only).

*Edit My area is new to epic and currently we only have people making EpicAU compliant lists. There are others who aren't interested in HH but would like to play NetEA. Since we are trying to build the community, having unified rules would open up the hobby.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Time to bring 30k into the fold? (Not a stand alone syst
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:03 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 5494
Location: Bristol
Yeah it irritates me that the Epic AU crowd decided relatively recently to create their own spin-off version of the the EpicA rules and rewrite loads of areas of the rules on a whim. We chatted about it in my local gaming crowd (which includes lots of the UK Epic tournament regulars) and the odd change the AU crowd did for their version of the rulebook makes sense but a lot of the changes seem poorly thought out and a bad idea. Previously the EpicA community around the world has played the same rules even if the local lists used varied and it seems a shame to unnecessarily change and fracture that but that's the way they've gone.

I'd suggest you're probably best off using the much more commonly used and better tested Net-EA rules rather than the Epic AU rules but use either Epic AU or Net-EA lists (or Epic UK lists if you're in the UK). The AU lists run fine using Net-EA rules and the two sets of lists should be roughly balanced against each other.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Time to bring 30k into the fold? (Not a stand alone syst
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:19 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:43 pm
Posts: 1372
Location: Devon, UK
sturgeon wrote:
My group has individuals who only want to play 30k, those who only want to play 40k and the rest who would like to play both. It would be convenient if we could all seamlessly transition between eras without having to worry about point balance, different rules and other deviations.

I don’t think the EpicAU lists have changed noticeably since they tweaked their rules, so there shouldn’t be any big issues with simply using EpicAU 30k lists against regular NetEA or EpicUK lists.

_________________
The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Time to bring 30k into the fold? (Not a stand alone syst
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:37 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9494
Location: Manalapan, FL
GlynG wrote:
I’m intending to work up a more streamlined Net-EA Horus Heresy legion list in the coming months (a single tournament focussed generic legion list and probably not bothering with all the many variants). I have put a lot of thought into how to go about it and I have plenty of local epic veterans up for testing it I just need to find the time to write it up. I’m aiming for a list that could be tournament approved in time and that hopefully a player could show up to any tournament with and use to play against existing lists.

The Epic AU lists are ok but not great. They added a way higher level of detail with weapon options and special rules than is necessary or that previous Epic Armageddon lists have had. It slows the game down and makes it harder to balance.


Hard agree. They're immense lists and not really tournament focused and harder to balance in that way. TBF that's not what they're stated goal was/is which is narrative style 30k gaming. They specifically want details and down in the weeds. Of course that doesn't work well for your wants/needs!

sturgeon wrote:
My thought was to make a whole legion wide list then give each legion their units and primarch and give any special rules to all legions without getting into legion specific traits (so legion specific wargear only).

*Edit My area is new to epic and currently we only have people making EpicAU compliant lists. There are others who aren't interested in HH but would like to play NetEA. Since we are trying to build the community, having unified rules would open up the hobby.


Seems a very cogent approach!

GlynG wrote:
Yeah it irritates me that the Epic AU crowd decided relatively recently to create their own spin-off version of the the EpicA rules and rewrite loads of areas of the rules on a whim.

Why? People don't have to play any version of the rules or game that you do. I mean by that thinking you must hate me and Tom for writing a new ruleset based on a revamped EA for Exodus Wars. Playing vanilla EA for me now feels like a huge step back in game design. You can choose to not like their changes- that's totally valid but they don't cause any issues with the UK scene as they don't do any development testing and don't want to because they want to play a very radically different style of play. I don't fault them for that even if it's not my personal thing. [shrugs]

GlynG wrote:
I'd suggest you're probably best off using the much more commonly used and better tested Net-EA rules rather than the Epic AU rules but use either Epic AU or Net-EA lists (or Epic UK lists if you're in the UK). The AU lists run fine using Net-EA rules and the two sets of lists should be roughly balanced against each other.

100% this

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Time to bring 30k into the fold? (Not a stand alone syst
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:57 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2548
Location: UK
I understand where Glyn is coming from; any time a subgroup diverges in an incompatible way it makes it less accessible for new people and shrinks the community, which is not exactly large in the first place. The fewer people you have collaborating on common terms, the less development can occur - if you follow it to its logical conclusion, where every gaming group is an independent authority in rules etc then all groups would have to make their own lists etc. There are good reasons why both NetEA and Epic UK never diverged from the GW rules, it provides an anchor point or centre of gravity. Anyone is free to make their own game, but it’s OK to be disappointed that the original game now has fewer players. I’d make a Brexit analogy but it’s still too painful :)

However in this case I personally have no issue with it mainly because the AU meta was for a long time an independent community within the wider NetEA community that had no significant crossover anyway - which is to say there was little benefit in that commonality in the first place so little has been lost. If anything, trying to do it as one group made things slower as there were divergent opinions originating from the different way the game is played and units used. The UK players couldn’t understand why the Australians thought a given list was over under powered when it worked totally fine for everyone else, and the Australians were convinced it was a conspiracy to ignore their feedback. Sometimes it is better not to pretend two different things are the same thing, and instead just separate them formally.

That said, back on topic, as others mentioned the Epic AU lists were not originally developed under a different ruleset so in principle are compatible with NetEA lists, BUT IIRC, I don’t think they were play tested against 40K lists, so I don’t think it can be assumed that just because they’re balanced against each other that they’re also balanced against eg Codex Astartes. Even if they were, they’d have been balanced in the AU meta which might not translate to your own (bearing in mind the paragraph above).

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Time to bring 30k into the fold? (Not a stand alone syst
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 5494
Location: Bristol
I agree with your post generally Kyrt. From what I remember the Australian players and meta won games a lot more through shooting than the rest of the world which primarily wins Epic through assaults. The rest of us were a bit puzzled and thought assault based lists and tactics like are common here should do better against them but they never really took it on. The Australians also play the terrain rules differently than the rest of the world by using true LOS rather than abstracting terrain. With these plus their smaller pool of testers and the vast array of options in the AU lists makes me a bit dubious if the AU lists are as balanced as the Net-EA or Epic-UK lists.

jimmyzimms wrote:
Why? People don't have to play any version of the rules or game that you do. I mean by that thinking you must hate me and Tom for writing a new ruleset based on a revamped EA for Exodus Wars. Playing vanilla EA for me now feels like a huge step back in game design. You can choose to not like their changes- that's totally valid but they don't cause any issues with the UK scene as they don't do any development testing and don't want to because they want to play a very radically different style of play. I don't fault them for that even if it's not my personal thing. [shrugs]

Nah you misread me a bit there - I don’t care at all that you are doing a port of Epic for a different game. I find it a shame as that Epic AU went for a variant rule set as it causes unnecessary fragmentation and confusion in the epic community. These days things don’t necessarily match country borders - I’m aware of multiple people and player groups here in the UK that have got into Epic through the AU lists as heresy is their main interest. There’s then an extra barrier and game differences for them then playing regular 40k setting Epic or coming to UK tournaments as it’s mostly the same game but with a few dozen things in the rules tweaked.

30k is increasingly popular due to AT being set then and the Siege of Terra books. If either Epic UK or Net-EA had at least a single generic 30k legion list that would better but currently they don’t. My free time is getting sucked up trying to paint up an army of AT knights to use for Epic tournaments at the moment but after I get that done writing up the generic 30k legion list up is my next hobby priority.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Time to bring 30k into the fold? (Not a stand alone syst
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:13 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:43 pm
Posts: 1372
Location: Devon, UK
For what it’s worth, TLoS is much more widespread than just the Australian meta. I was pretty shocked when I went to my first EpicUK tournament and got told that TLoS wasn’t being used.

Outside of tournaments, locally we use a hybrid version and let tall units see over lower terrain.

_________________
The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Time to bring 30k into the fold? (Not a stand alone syst
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:13 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9494
Location: Manalapan, FL
I think the AU meta of TLoS is overplayed somewhat. They being in the heartland of forumware the models were overwhelmingly in scale (including Titans and SHT) so it's more a choice of terrain. If something was blocking or not didn't really matter for testing nor gameplay when everyone had the same source (mostly).

That being said, they wanted to play a different type of game and why HH ended up working there. Big giant epic battles full of tanks and masses of troops shooting it out. Less Band of Brothers vs Attack of the Clones.

So lets get back on topic: what's the end goal here actually? Lets articulate it clearly

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Time to bring 30k into the fold? (Not a stand alone syst
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:37 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:09 pm
Posts: 23
Goal is to see if there is interest/need/enthusiasm for generating Epic 30k lists that are balanced for NetEA games.

My reasoning stems from two things
1) Trying to grow an epic community is difficult and doubly so when some people want to play EpicAU and others who would prefer to play xenos armies.
-Issues in that EpicAU deviates from rules (making it confusing for newbies)
-EpicAU is unbalanced compared to NetEA

2) Reducing model clutter by allowing for units from one system being usable in the other
-Issue being that there are many armies, units and special abilities that are used in one system and not another to the point where some people would have to own multiple versions of the same army to remain compliant to the rules when moving between systems

A unified system would allow for both games to be played without further isolating from one another. This in turn would open the game to more people as lists can be compatible. So if I move across country, or even between countries, my armies will remain relevant and playable.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

cron

Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net