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Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6

 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:42 am 
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Thanks for the reply.

It's understandable regarding additional special rules, but there must have been some cutoff point, because all the fan lists in the tournament pack include plenty - tau, necrons, tyranids all have special rules added for example.

from my perspective I've been making comparisons between the titan clans and the legio titanica, as they're kind of the same sort of thing. So the structure of the titan legion list was approved by the community, I imagine following similar designs with the titan clans wouldn't get too much pushback? So given you can arm any reaver or warlord with as many melta cannons as they have weapon mounts, it would seem fine to have the same for the eldar.

How to stretch existing rules to cover concepts for eldar titan weapons? Does it count if its explained in the notes part rather than as a separate rule? like exarch weapons etc.

ie you could do this for the d-cannon 45cm MW2+ TK (1d3+1), D, every unit within 5cm of the target takes a hit on a 4+ (this is the rules for an exploding imperial titan reactor).

As BC is the only thing that ignores shields, could you say the attack counts as coming from BC?

something like: d-cannon 45cm 3BP MW, TK1d3 attacks are considered to be coming from BC regardless of distance

as for tremor cannon.... could you just add something like the avatar's death effect to the notes? All Eldar formations with a unit with a line of fire to the Avatar receive a Blast marker.

In this instance, 'all formations under the line of fire to the target receive a blast marker'.

i tend to make them special rules so they can be reused, or at least standardised, but as there are special effects only explained in the notes part, perhaps coopting them is workable?

I've attached the list i wrote that brought me back here, as a discussion point more than anything. I tried to emulate the titan legion list in eldar form more or less, given that it was an approved design.

I've also put some comments in the EA rules design forum as well specifically around redoing war engines which might make them more easily able to become a workable army list.


EDIT: For precedence, the approved titan legion army list gives the warp missile the ability to ignore void and power fields:

Can be armed with one of the following: Barrage Missile, Deathstrike
Missile, Vortex Missile or Warp Missile. A Warp Missile ignores
Imperial Void Shields and Power Fields.


So IMO, the community shouldn't have any issue with d-cannons having something like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:25 am 
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Hellebore wrote:
Thanks for the reply.

It's understandable regarding additional special rules, but there must have been some cutoff point, because all the fan lists in the tournament pack include plenty - tau, necrons, tyranids all have special rules added for example.


I'm pretty sure scarik is talking about unit-specific and weapon-specific rules, not army rules (which Eldar are already overloaded with).

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:58 pm 
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Hellebore wrote:
from my perspective I've been making comparisons between the titan clans and the legio titanica, as they're kind of the same sort of thing.

You need to take into account the automatic Eldar Faction special rules in your take, of which they have a CRAP-TON of. It's not a straight comparison.

Hellebore wrote:
So the structure of the titan legion list was approved by the community, I imagine following similar designs with the titan clans wouldn't get too much pushback? So given you can arm any reaver or warlord with as many melta cannons as they have weapon mounts, it would seem fine to have the same for the eldar.

Structure isn't anything that's being debated here AFAICT. We're just pointing out that there's existing weapon stats that you should align with and not the legacy throwing poo-poo at the wall thing JJ did in Swordwind, that's all
:)

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:16 pm 
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Hellebore wrote:
Thanks for the reply.

It's understandable regarding additional special rules, but there must have been some cutoff point, because all the fan lists in the tournament pack include plenty - tau, necrons, tyranids all have special rules added for example.



As the others said the Eldar have some doozies already and weapon special rules just bother people.

And once they get a look at what happens when you double retain with the steamroller that is a dual-fist Phantom and fist-lance Warlock...

On the other hand the shooting of this list is generally weak for the main reason that you probably have 5 activations so you need to use them to control the board: you have to Engage and do so decisively.

Hellebore wrote:
EDIT: For precedence, the approved titan legion army list gives the warp missile the ability to ignore void and power fields:

Can be armed with one of the following: Barrage Missile, Deathstrike
Missile, Vortex Missile or Warp Missile. A Warp Missile ignores
Imperial Void Shields and Power Fields.


So IMO, the community shouldn't have any issue with d-cannons having something like that.


I forgot about that. Don't think I've ever seen one used which doesn't surprise me since its 0-1 and Single Shot (I suppose you could take 4 of them as your 4 weapons?) So the D-cannon still has that to deal with. Still, could work as an alternate firing mode. 45cm range is nothing at all like Unlimited and Indirect at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:31 am 
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Make your pitches for what to include in 5.0 now, please.

I am currently looking over my notes and editing the list.

To Do:
Pass over weapon stats for utility and flavor. This should also let us reduce the base cost of a Phantom by giving an option for less powerful weapons (pulsars and power fists stay the benchmark).

Bring Titans Forge Word/Imperial Titan standard (2 arm weapons, 2 carapace weapons) as opposed to the current version of 2 arm weapons and 2 twin missile launchers. Weapons will be strictly arm-only or carapace-only.

Stare very hard at Revenants and nail down how much a solo one costs so that they aren't a 0-1 option.

Reconsider the role of Knights. (stay in support or move to the scout titan section) and their weapons

Rethink Ground Support units (what troops belong in this army and how can it be made less like Iyanden. Another hard look at Wraithlords will be needed and if included should be made more like the current 40k brand: armed with their fists/ghostglaives, small arms/flamers and up to 2 heavy weapons.)

Adapt the format of the War Gryphon list including all support units going into the 1/3rd section.

Consider the return of the Avatar and/or a bigger version that can actually stride beside titans.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:59 am 
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Weapons
D-cannon - I find it a little cumbersome with the dual profile, which seems to be to get around the issue with barrage template hit scores being low - hard to be an anti war engine weapon if your AT score is 5+.....
I'd either choose one profile or the other as the basis and then modify accordingly.
ie
3BP MW TK2 ignores shields (so a warlord gets 4 dice rolled against it hitting on 5+ but each one ignores shields and does 2 points of damage)
or
4x MW4+, TK2 ignores shields

despite not using a template that second profile will stall take out up to 4 units in a formation

Heat lance - the only thing I'd like, is to see its original longer range appear. So maybe 60cm TK1, 30cm TK1d3, 15cm TK1D6

Tremor cannon - I like it as a disruption tool hitting multiple formations in a line

Titan starcannon seems good to me as a chaff killer. It's the brightlance I'm not sure has a real purpose, other than being a cheaper worse AT weapon compared to a pulsar, d'cannon or fusion lance.

Are you looking to add other carapace options? my thoughts were in my army list I posted, choose one of 3, either missiles, twin lances or twin shuriken cannons. So you've got great AT, or great AP or average both an AA.

Unsure where knights should go, but perhaps split them into assault and support, and take them in troupes? So your assault is sword and board, and the support is choose one set of weapons?


I was thinking that the ground support could be a guardian warhost, but maybe without a farseer (i replaced with warlock). IMO that's where you can get your wraithlords - I don't really see the need for them to be their own troupe.

As for the Avatar, maybe all you need to do is provide a permanent one? So it stays for the whole game? Has its own cost? It's not bad by itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:46 am 
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Hellebore wrote:
Weapons
D-cannon - I find it a little cumbersome with the dual profile, which seems to be to get around the issue with barrage template hit scores being low - hard to be an anti war engine weapon if your AT score is 5+.....
I'd either choose one profile or the other as the basis and then modify accordingly.
ie
3BP MW TK2 ignores shields (so a warlord gets 4 dice rolled against it hitting on 5+ but each one ignores shields and does 2 points of damage)
or
4x MW4+, TK2 ignores shields

despite not using a template that second profile will stall take out up to 4 units in a formation.

Remember that the Fir Iolarian list doesn’t exist in a vacuum - players are going to expect the D-Cannon on a Phantom to work in a similar way to the D-Cannon on a Cobra.

Also, those stats are freaking insane. The Barrage version hits substantially harder than a Vortex Missile or Warp Missile without being limited to one shot, and the 4x MW4+ version has relatively high odds of one-shotting a fully shielded unharmed Reaver, and can potentially one-shot a fully shielded unharmed Warlord.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:17 am 
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Hellebore wrote:
As for the Avatar, maybe all you need to do is provide a permanent one? So it stays for the whole game? Has its own cost? It's not bad by itself.


lolwut?

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:43 pm 
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IJW Wartrader"
Remember that the Fir Iolarian list doesn’t exist in a vacuum - players are going to expect the D-Cannon on a Phantom to work in a similar way to the D-Cannon on a Cobra.
[/quote]

That's the elephant in the room isn't it. Though my Titan version is better range but worse single target as its MW4+ and the Cobra is 3+ so gotta change that anyway.

[quote="Hellebore wrote:
Weapons
D-cannon - I find it a little cumbersome with the dual profile, which seems to be to get around the issue with barrage template hit scores being low - hard to be an anti war engine weapon if your AT score is 5+.....
I'd either choose one profile or the other as the basis and then modify accordingly.
ie
3BP MW TK2 ignores shields (so a warlord gets 4 dice rolled against it hitting on 5+ but each one ignores shields and does 2 points of damage)
or
4x MW4+, TK2 ignores shields

despite not using a template that second profile will stall take out up to 4 units in a formation


IJW Wartrader has the right of it here. Something like that has to be decided at the full Eldar faction level. At list level we have to suffer with tweaks.

Hellebore wrote:
Heat lance - the only thing I'd like, is to see its original longer range appear. So maybe 60cm TK1, 30cm TK1d3, 15cm TK1D6


3 stat lines is simple enough. I think it might be ok to go
60cm MW2+ TK 1d3 (this is a little more competitive with Pulsars but still worse)
30cm MW2+ TK 1d6 (this is where you mostly want to be but only 1 attack and it limits move-shoot-move tricks due to range)
Small Arms EA+1 TK 1d6 (with only 6DC Eldar Titans absolutely need boosts in assault)


Hellebore wrote:
Tremor cannon - I like it as a disruption tool hitting multiple formations in a line


At 60cm I expect a revolt due to how easily you can hit half an army since you can double 50cm to get on a flank. Try and test it at 45cm and make it hit allies as well. Let me know what your opponents think of it.

The alternative I'm looking at is using the big template but otherwise normal barrage stats.

Hellebore wrote:
Titan starcannon seems good to me as a chaff killer. It's the brightlance I'm not sure has a real purpose, other than being a cheaper worse AT weapon compared to a pulsar, d'cannon or fusion lance.


I like the sun/starcannon, need to fix the name. 2 of them is murder on infantry formations, and 1 plus a powerfist gives you good range to blast weakened units that try to escape as well as pulverive things up close.

Brightlance is on the chopping block. The only way it can be kept is if it can be made so that a Phantom can cost 650 when armed with it or an alternative, weak weapon and I am really not sure that's possible.

Hellebore wrote:
Are you looking to add other carapace options? my thoughts were in my army list I posted, choose one of 3, either missiles, twin lances or twin shuriken cannons. So you've got great AT, or great AP or average both an AA.


Forgeworld's 40k version has 3 options: Missile Launcher, Pulse Laser (as Falcon), Starcannon.

By default Epic Eldar Titans are armed with 2 Twin Missile Launchers so the other options would be twinned as well.
Twin Pulse Laser: 45cm 2x AT3+
Twin Starcannon: ? I don't think anything in Epic has a Starcannon. A Twin Scatter Laser would be 30cm AP4+/AT4+.
30cm AP3+/AT3+ could work. More versatile than the Pulse Laser but fewer attacks, more deadly to ground units than the Missile Launcher but less range and no AA.

Hellebore wrote:
Unsure where knights should go, but perhaps split them into assault and support, and take them in troupes? So your assault is sword and board, and the support is choose one set of weapons?


Making 2 entries with locked weapons seems solid.

Hellebore wrote:
I was thinking that the ground support could be a guardian warhost, but maybe without a farseer (i replaced with warlock). IMO that's where you can get your wraithlords - I don't really see the need for them to be their own troupe.


Maybe as a Craftworld Milita formation? Titan Clans are about total war, damn the consequences, so the Farseers are going to throw every body they need to at the problem. The issue there is to find a way to not be Iyanden. ^^

Hellebore wrote:
As for the Avatar, maybe all you need to do is provide a permanent one? So it stays for the whole game? Has its own cost? It's not bad by itself.


As is the Avatar is a 3DC beater that only a Warlock can summon.

I feel like the options I have are to tweak its stats, change it to use the Chaos Daemon rules, or allow it to also come out of a Webway if you don't want to use a Farseer. It still has to feel like a summoned creature and use rules similar to what people expect.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:38 pm 
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With regards to the avatar, maybe something like this:

When an avatar is summoned for a prolonged period of time it continues to absorb the hatred and anger of the eldar around it. This emotional tide sustains and empowers the shard of khaine, turning it into a maelstrom of destruction.

150 points

Avatar Ascendant WE 15cm 3+ 2+ 3+ Wailing doom 30cm MW2+
BC EA +2, MW
Holofield, Commander, Damage Capacity 3, Fearless, Inspiring,
Invulnerable Save, Walker. Critical Hit Effect: The unit is
destroyed. All Eldar formations with a unit with a line of fire to
the Avatar receive a Blast marker.

The avatar may be summoned by a Warlock titan, or a webway portal. once summoned it stays on the battlefield for the remainder of the game.


Something to keep in mind is that backgroundwise, an avatar isn't like a greater daemon in that it has a physical body in realspace. It doesn't need to be summoned or sustained in reality. It just needs to be woken up. The whole 'avatar around for 1 turn before disappearing' thing harks back to classic EPIC, and more represents it being summoned to fight at particularly important battles. when it leaves it's just going to somewhere else in the battle not being fought on the table.

Once an avatar is awakened, it remains that way until the war is over. If a titan clan is considered eldar all out war then I imagine the battle being fought is a super important one so the avatar is going to stay around to see it finished.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:38 pm 
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I can dig it. I tried to do a post earlier but it got eaten so here's the recap of that as well.

The Model for the Avatar is not something that makes me think of 3DC but it is what it is and we can make excuses for it as needed. But it made me think of the old 28mm Avatar and how its about the size of a Titan.

In fluff the Avatars are summoned from shards of where Khaine fell back into realspace (as you mentioned) which makes the Avatar a sort of Daemonhost. SO what happens whrn you have a really big shard or more than one and use some desperate sorcery to summon a titanic avatar?

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:59 pm 
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There is definitely some background support for the shards not all being equal.

Generally though the avatar is not more powerful than a bloodthirster - although it will stay around longer than one.

Apparently 40k will be getting a new plastic avatar in the new year, which I imagine will be on the same scale as the other GDs.

Unless you're keen on the idea of ascendent greater daemons the size of titans as well? Which isn't a bad concept. The forgeworld GDs represent that concept.

Basically if it aligns with GDs in some way then its fine in my book. The current version with EA+2 MW and a holofield would probably be enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:09 am 
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Hellebore wrote:
Basically if it aligns with GDs in some way then its fine in my book. The current version with EA+2 MW and a holofield would probably be enough.


Why would it have a holofield?

Avatars aren't hard to target as far as I know, they just shrug off most attacks because their aura incinerates projectiles. RA and an Invulnerable save could do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:39 am 
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scarik wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
Basically if it aligns with GDs in some way then its fine in my book. The current version with EA+2 MW and a holofield would probably be enough.


Why would it have a holofield?

Avatars aren't hard to target as far as I know, they just shrug off most attacks because their aura incinerates projectiles. RA and an Invulnerable save could do that.



Well in the same way banshees aren't infiltrators but the rule gives them something that represents something else.

With the avatar it just means it can save against TK weapons, reflecting its unnatural resilience. With banshees it was the ability to double charge.


Either way, it should be around the equivalent of a bloodthirster, replacing flying etc with resilience.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:40 am 
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They already are the equivalent of Bloodthirsters, and able to save against TK weapons. What Avatar profile are you looking at?

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