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2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues

 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:47 am 
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I agree, fighting ain't necessary here, we're discussing rules for toy soldiers not politics, or religion, or star wars.

Let's continue to playtest the Australian's concerns for now, and if the Ozzies want to reciprocate and playtest the counter-strategies that have been proposed, that would be not uncool.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:04 am 
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I think people on both sides of the fence are pretty unlikley to change their view in repsonse to any of this. Someone should just create a new BTEldar list for Aus tournaments. Do what works for you as someone once or twice said.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:55 am 
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Ok, so before I close this thread down lets all take a deep breath, hold it for 5 and slowly breath out.

This is the internet and we all know that the smallest things can get blown out of proportion.

I agree that there is an issue with the Eldar.

I disagree on the size of the problem with some of you, but there is an issue.

Rather than looking at the list as the problem can I ask everyone to have a thought about the special rules:

Issue - Eldar can have a superb alpha strike with potentially three activations before their opponent can start. This coupled with artillery and direct shooting that can reach a deployment zone can (& does in cases) result in three activations being stripped from their opponents putting them on the back foot from the start. This can potentially be repeated at the start of subsequent turns picking off the most threatening units on the table.
There are caveats to this, formations must activate, a retain has a negative modifier (except farsight) and in most cases the initial initiative of a formation is 2+.

Let me suggest a simple change - rather than a second retain having the same -1 modifier as the first let it be cumulative and become -2. This is something that is often expected by new players facing this list.

Farsight would be slightly modified to only reduce the retain modifier by 1, so a double retaining Guardian formation would now have a -1 to activate.

I think that this change would be workable through the Eldar lists and is simple to test as it only affects the Eldar once per turn, assuming that they actually use this.

Feedback at the start is simple too, would have affected the game / made no difference as I rolled a 6.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:59 am 
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Quote:
I rolled a 6.

I think you failed one activation in our game. Which you then re-rolled and passed.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:02 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
I rolled a 6.

I think you failed one activation in our game. Which you then re-rolled and passed.

No I failed a few more than that, I was just then in a position to shoot directly rather than remove blast markers.

Killer for anyone set up to play multiple activations is of course failing the first one, I'm still cursing those Falcons from the last tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:04 pm 
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No I failed a few more than that, I was just then in a position to shoot directly rather than remove blast markers.

Damn rules that allow things and junk.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Thumbs up from me Tim.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:41 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
Rather than looking at the list as the problem can I ask everyone to have a thought about the special rules:

Sounds like a good start.
The suggestions for weakening full move consolidate are promising as well.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Good suggestions tiny tim.
I think the increase in VS points and the activation change would be a great place to start and may even eliminate the issues.

At this stage i feel the removal of the full consolidation move may have too great a negative impact on the viability of the list.

But as has been said playtesting will be key.

Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:31 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
Let me suggest a simple change - rather than a second retain having the same -1 modifier as the first let it be cumulative and become -2. This is something that is often expected by new players facing this list.

Farsight would be slightly modified to only reduce the retain modifier by 1, so a double retaining Guardian formation would now have a -1 to activate.

I think that this change would be workable through the Eldar lists and is simple to test as it only affects the Eldar once per turn, assuming that they actually use this.

This is actually a great idea IMO. It is a really simple but effective change that doesn't completely turn the list on its head. The great thing about the eldar special rules is that they are elegant - simple tweaks but to major game mechanics which changes the way the army plays fundamentally. Most other changes you could make to eldar would have many consequences that are very difficult to disentangle.

Another similar change could be for the second retain to only apply to the formation with farsight. Normally the order of activations is very important so this would seriously limit the impact of the rule and take care of the double spinner scorpion alpha strike.

Its worth saying though, in my experience being able to triple retain rolling assault at will is actually fairly rare against canny opponents. But when a rolling assault does happen it tends to win you the game. On the triple alpha strike - there's less your opponent can do to prevent it but is often not as effective as it appears at first glance and is less of a game winner. Both are certainly frustrating for an opponent and skew the game though. So making that 'upper limit effect' harder to achieve seems a reasonable thing to do.

I have to admit to being a bit dumbfounded with Mard's response. This entire thread IS ITSELF the rest of the community taking the concerns of the Aussies seriously. Pretty ironic to complain on this very thread that people on the internet arent doing what you want. Seriously think you need to step out of your echo chamber and accept the olive branch that's being offered here.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:19 pm 
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Hey guys

My post was not supposed to create an argument, nor to have a go at anyone, so I apologize if anyone took offence.

It was just to point out why our club hasn't been posting many battle reports. Just that the vast majority of players don't see it as worth their time as we have had plenty of arguments on here before that have left a vast sour taste in everyone's mouths. (Remember the terrain conversation that derailed the squat thread after Cancon 2016?).

I also know we have lost players due to the stagnation of how slowly things happen or change on here (Hopefully we can win them back one day).


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:20 pm 
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Is double retain alpha strike really the issue? Never heard anyone complain about it.

And the change affects much more than alpha strike, it seriously negates thir play style and it impacts all eldar lists not just BT. Eldar are fine as they are.


Last edited by ffoley on Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:25 pm 
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ffoley wrote:
Is double retain alpha strike really the issue? Never heard anyone complain about it.

I'm not convinced, it's only really a tactic vs steel legion with their small artillery and deathstrike formations. I'd never burn the activations or risk the retains otherwise

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:53 am 
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WOW! We are all bloody passionate about this game of tiny little toy soldiers!!
It seems a lot of context of what people are trying to communicate here is lost given the very nature of online forums. Which only results in a lot of online fist waving.

I know where Mard is coming from as his frustrations are shared by many in the Australian community. Simply put, "we don't want to see epic in Australia die!"

I for one appreciate this thread discussing options to possible balance BT. Thanks to Tim, et al for testing one of the builds that is presently a challenge to our meta. Regarding suggestions of tactics made by others such as effective use of air assaults and space ships we do use these, please don't feel the suggestions have not been explored. The gap between various metas shows that these tactics are given different levels of effectiveness. For me assault based armies are a gamblers list...got to know when to hold them!

Greg has put forward some ideas (that were discussed by Greg, Tim and the eldar sub-AC) and Tim has also added to that list further. I respect that some players don't feel change is needed, and that's fine. This thread is to test and trial options for "possible" change to BT (which may effect the other eldar lists too) but first I believe we need to decide what exactly the initial changes are. So far all the ideas put forward are too many to test at once and some are different ways of addressing the same precieved issue.

I like Tims suggestion of limiting the effectiveness of the triple retain.
Personally, I would also like to test a number of other changes but for simplicity sake I will choose 4 rules on top of Tims suggestion as a place to begin:
1. Ratio 1:2
2. Avatar costs 50pts and cannot be summoned by broken formations
3. Void spinner 300pts
4. All eldar consolidation moves are double what the normal consolidation move rather than a full normal move.

*cups hand to ear and hears on line groans and curses*

Some people may agree with some of these, all of these or none of these. But let's agree on a point to start testing. I have a game at club next weekend which I am happy to batrep on.

Cheers

Mic

P.s I would love to try and work out a way to make the Cobra a viable option compared to other super heavies but...


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:20 am 
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HI everyone

Regarding mic's reply

i would consider testing the following:

1. Ratio 1:2
2. Fire Prism, Bring it back in line with UK stats and structure and points….
3. Tim's farsight change
4. All eldar consolidation moves are double what the normal consolidation move rather than a full normal move.

this is my point of view.

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