Now that we have found a stat evolution for the Cobra that we agree to playtest, perhaps we can adress the lesser problem of the Scorpion.

I understand there is a general agreement that the NetEA Scorpion is slightly underperforming.

- Tiny-Tim proposes a price reduction.

- EUK has increased the range of the main gun to 75 cm.

- Chroma has proposed we test 3 shots on the main gun, instead of 2.

After asking Black Legion what the 40k stats are (as a comparison tool):

The Pulsar of the Scorpion is a Strength D weapon in Wh40k. This equals to being Titan-killer in Epic.

The stats are exactly the same as the Shadowsword's Volcano Cannon except that the Volcano Cannon has double the range (120") and that the Pulsar has two shots (and on the Scorpion twin-linked also) instead of only one.

Note thatthe Pulsar of the Scorpion is the same weapon as on the Revenant Titans and on the Vampire Raider except that the Scorpion's Pulsar is twin-linked which usually gives a+1 to-hit in Epic.

Note also that we are talking of the context of the NetEA BT list, where Fire Prisms are dedicated AT vehicles at the 60 cm range.


I personally have the feeling that 3 shots at 2+ is very (too?) strong, which is something EUK has apparently also felt (its written in their codex). There are many options really (3xshots 2+ 45 cm, 3xshots 3+, 3xshots 3+ 75 cm, TK instead of MW, etc.).

Any thoughts?

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

Personally I favor 3*3+MW at 75 cm or straight TK. We haven't tested it enough to have anything definite to say about it in out group yet though.

My '2 cents'

3* shots is the key, with weapon range and strength being secondary though important. Essentially the intent is to restore the impact caused by the original Pulsar changes that 'nerfed' the stronger weapons while 'buffing' the weaker ones.

On the Range

• The original stats were 60cm MW2+, which does not greatly inhibit doubling, while sustaining gives no advantage (a 1 is always a miss). However the 60cm range has a significant impact on the utility of the unit, despite being a 'skimmer'.
  
• E-UK stats are 75cm and MW2+, which gives them a more appropriate and effective range when compared to IG. (I prefer these stats for that reason)
  
• Dropping the range to 45cm is inappropriate because this will hamstring the Scorpion (forcing them to operate too close to the enemy and thus in a 'non-Eldar' manner - one of the main issues in the Cobra debate!).

Other options

• IMO, Changing the price may work though is probably inappropriate and will be hard to balance.
• Adding TK is also inappropriate as the scorpion has never had it, nor I do not believe the 'image' supports or warrants it (ie the 40K stats). It would also muddy the Cobra debate further, something to be avoided
• Dropping the power to 3* 3+MW should also be considered, or even 3* 4+MW, which will bring the overall strength back to match the equivalent Falcon or Fire Prism costs and strengths.
  Note, take care when comparing with the Fire Prism stats as there are significant differences between NetEA and E-UK (and the French), though E-UK stats are closer to the original Swordwind.

Actually, the 40k stats support TK and not 75 cm range. Not that we are bound by those in any way.

Concerning the 75 cm range, this does give the Eldar abilities that the original BT list did not really support. In general Eldar only have mid-range shooting, which forces them to go up close and personal against dedicated shooting armies like IG or Tau. Also, its one of the only reasons to include a Phantom in the army, to get that extra high range support. Those are the reasons why I do not really favour the EuK increase in range.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

Fair enough.
I was refering to the stats quoted by Black Legion here, which I thought gave TK to the Phantom but not to the Scorpion.
However your point about the range and potential incursion of the Phantom 'niche' is correct, though I suggest we try both 60cm and 75cm ranges.

Strictly following Wh40k stats and comparing with the Shadowsword's Volcano Cannon the Scorpions Twin-linked Pulsar wpuld have:
45cm 2 x MW2+ TK(D3)

Considering the elastic ranges of Epic and that the Voncano Cannon "suffers" from this these stats would also be appropiate:
60cm 2 x MW2+ TK(D3)

A unique feature would be to actually give the Scorpion MW1+ but this would be basically Ignore Cover

But well strictly any change to the Scorpion's twin-linked Pulsar will have percussions to the Revenant and Vampire Hunter because all use the same weapon in Wh40k.

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Considering BL's statement above, I am actually thinking that 45 cm 3x MW 2+ would be an interesting evolution. That way it remains coherent with the Revenant's weapons.

The Fire Prism would remain the heavy AT of choice at long range, and the tougher Scorpion would be deployed closer to the enemy with supporting troops, versatile in its targets.

The only issue is actually comparing Scorpions with Revenants. Yet because of the activation advantage of single scorpions, they could still be internally balanced.

If we went forward with the majority vote of cheaper large formations of EoV's, then 3 Scorpions at 650 points would be really a comparable choice to Revenants at 650.

Still not decided though.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

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What are you referring to?

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

By prefered order :
75cm range (real long range, not the same niche than the Phantom because not TK, and with the 60cm range of the NetEA Fire Prisms, it don't hurt to get back a 75cm range no-titan unit)
3*MW2+ (+50% firepower boost, need as I never get 2 hits with the actual profile !)
3*MW3+ (less big boost, but still a firepower boost)

Don't want :
shorter range than 60cm (Scorpion is a long range hunter)
TK (Scorpion is not a WE killer, just a medium tank killer)
cost reduction (Eldar don't need more cheap and effective activation)

I love my 75cm range Scorpions. As I explained in an earlier thread, increasing the range is the greatest boost it can have and definately makes it worth taking over a Falcon fm once basic air defence is taken care of.

I'd favour 75 cm and hopefully you'll have similar experience to my own, which are happy ones.

Second in preference would be 75 cm 3 x 3+, although personally I think 2 shots at 2+ is much more eldar like as I like the surety that doubling and hitting on a 3+ rather than a 4+ but with more shots brings, making me use the Scorpions in a more hit and run fashion.

I am convinced that 75 cm range is really nice, as I have tried the BT EUK list many times. However, there are better picks than 250 points scorpions in the EUK list and as argued above, 75 cm is giving an option to the army that is not really justified.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

I think you are deforming my words. My main issue with the 75 cm is that allows the list to do things it was never designed to do. Long range shooting is not Eldar like. It is a designed flaw of the race in 40k.

As you know also, the NetEA Scorpion has not been changed since the 2008 review. Are you suggesting that the EUK stats are the best stats for it? What are your arguments?

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

Fire prism: 75cm
Phantom Pulsar: 75 cm
Scorpion: 60 cm
Void Spinner: 120cm with indirect

These look pretty long range to me. I find your logic and argument to be faulty with this one. With the exception of the fire prisms though these are all WEs which is a characteristic of the race. There's not much that has long range and those that do are mounted on WEs.

You asked what would make the Scorpion a better choice, I've told you. This version of the scorpion has been playtested and discussed by hardcore tournament players and decided that it's the best way to make it more attractive. I agree. Long range is what makes the Scorpion have a role to play. The Cobra is short range death, the SS is a transport and the VS is artillery. It's just that the long range GW gave it isn't quite useful enough to justify taking it over more Falcons with their AA, greater number of shots, and extra speed and FF capabilities. However, extend that to 75cm and suddenly it's a contender (Once AA is taken care of)

It's worth noting though that you're going to struggle to make the Scorpion compete against the Void Spinner in the Biel Tann list. The Void Spinner brings something to the table that can't be found anywhere else in the list, wheras the Scorpion has major competition for its place with units like Falcons and Fire Prisms who also bring abilities to the table which are infinately more useful, especially when points are tight.

At 3000pts you do really need to be clinical and cut away the chaff to make an efficient list that has all the bases covered and enough activations to be a plausable threat. The Scorpion doesn't really fit into this category. It's a nice little unit but doesn't have the abilities that I must have - as Rug also mentions above. At 4000pts though I rather like taking a couple of singletons, especially in my EUK Ulthwe list that doesn't have VSs, because there it does bring something to the table that can't be replicated elsewhere.