Not really. The basic attack of Rough riders does not have FS, while their Extra attack does.

Therefore, a canny opponent can remove the b-t-b stands from the rough riders as casualties from their FS attacks, leaving RR to use their measly FF score for their basic attack.

Or am I mistaken?

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You have to remove models in base to base first during engagements so yes the RR's get their FS then will use FF for the actual combat, kinda balanced by the fact that the RR's still get to attack even if they have killed whatever they got into b-2-b with, while the target is dead before the combat really begins.

Oh, and I really don't mind about Howling Banshee's. I rarely if ever take either them or Scorpions in any eldar list. That said no new special rules please

The point of my proposition was to avoid special rules.

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Give the banshee exarch's extra attack first strike and boost them to CC2+ if they're not already..... not much else needs to be done, as meph points out, CC aspects aren't taken nearly as often as FF ones (unless you're playing Saim-Hann) for the many advantages of FF over CC..... I can't think of many compelling reasons to take them over a FF formation even with a significant boost

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Why even bother considering a boost if the end result is that they will stay shelved even if boosted? If I follow your line of argument, no boost is desirable, because anyway useless.

I disagree. Finding the correct boost is what this is about. If they were simply 3+ MW first strike I am sure they would be picked over FF aspects, but it has been tested and proved too strong (by FERC).

With the stats I propose or some similarly consequent boost, I would pick them. As proposed they would be great against T-Sons or Iyanden or even Minervans. The best pick from the aspects. Then of course you would need Storm Serpents or Vampires to transport them, but their Infiltrate would guarantee their usefulness every turn after delivery.

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I'll say again, Banshees work fine with 2+CC.
If Banshee Exarchs are allowed to have there extra CC attack to be first strike too then the formation works well and is a viable choice if used well, emphasis being put on "used well" .

Other aspect formations maybe "easier to use" for players (getting extra use out of them supporting other assaults etc.) but just because something is easier to use doesn't make it better.

There's no need to give them sniper/MW/infiltrate or any other or new special rule, I think players really need to use them better as part of a combined arms list instead of trying to make them a stand alone formation.

It seems to me as though players are trying to get them "balanced" in one off theory situations instead of having them "balanced" as a formation in a list and game that is about using a combined arms approach and making units/formations work together.

This would be fine and all, except they are never used with their current stats...

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They are here, more often than Striking Scorpions at tournaments.

Instead of players pushing for upping the power of everything that isn't seen regularly in lists to make them "viable" why don't we see the regular taken formations reduced in power or upped in cost.

Where is here? If it's EUK, the stats show more striking scorpions, and only once Banshees. Also, that was 8 Banshees with two exarchs that had FS.

There are quite a few Eldar units that could do with a little nerf, but this is not the subject of this thread.

The subject here is to how to make Banshees see more play, and everything is on the table. Just stating that EUK stats are the best option is fine and all, but is only an opinion.

I personally like EUk stats except for the fact that it makes Banshee CC score the best in the universe, which is kinda weird for a unit that in 40k: 1) does not have 2 attacks, 2) has a CC of 4 and 3) has a strength of 3.
In other terms I would feel more confortrable with their original CC of 3+ in Epic and some kind of way to make it stronger. I also think that increasing their mobility is necessary, so that they can find their niche.

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don't forget to check EUK Ulthwe..... Banshees appear in 3 (pretty successful) lists whereas scorpions are nowhere to be found......

There was also a case of one of the Biel-Tan lists having 4 'bashees'.... again a pretty successful list....

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If they are never used then how do players know they are worthwhile or not ?

I'd suggest players using them for a dozen games over a month or so and try adjusting there lists and tactics to work with them.

Usually I just see players replacing FF aspect formation for Banshee aspect formation and find they don't work when used as other aspect formations are used, instead of trying to finding out how to use them as their own formation.



Yes it is only "an opinion" but so is almost every post that anyone puts on here when discussing stats, units and formations. That doesn't make it any less viable than yours or others "opinion" that Banshees need to change.

You yourself would like to see the Exarchs gain first strike... So we agree on the principle of change, just not its content.

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Personally I do think there are three basic things that are at play here:
1. CC units aren't as useful as FF, and when there's tight competition for places there often isn't room for CC troops even if they are "balanced"
2. Banshees don't fit well alongside other units due to First Strike wonkiness.
3. Banshees are potentially not quite as good as other comparable options (e.g. scorpions).

Point 1 for me is not solvable, and we should be prepared to accept that CC aspects will be less common on the battlefield. This does not however mean that 2 and 3 should not be tackled if possible. The EUK stats for me deal with point 3, or as near as possible at least. The main thing that blocks me from taking banshees is that I have to compromise on what else I can use them with - i.e. the "combined arms" doesn't work well with them. They are a niche enough unit as it is, so rules weirdness really doesn't help.

Personally I think the first strike rules cause problems in general, and a simple FAQ like LordotMilk's suggestion would solve a whole raft of these issues as well as giving the opportunity to simplify some other effects. For example: which units are counted to be "in range" or "directly involved" after first strike attacks have taken place? Do you take things as they were at the beginning of the assault, or halfway through? If it were possible to just FAQ the issue out of existence that would be worth doing IMO, and at first glance this one would seem to work (perhaps the wording could be simplified a bit). Working out who is in CC and who is not actually makes more sense too IMO when you consider how MW hit allocation works. i.e. you can have a much more "ordered" picture of how assaults progress:

1. Work out which units are in CC, which are in FF, and thus what their to-hit rolls will be.
2. First strike attacks are rolled.
3. First strike non-MW attacks are allocated, saves made.
4. First strike MW attacks are allocated, RA saves made.
5. Remove any destroyed units.
6. Normal attacks from surviving units are rolled.
7. Standard non-MW attacks are allocated, saves made.
8. Standard MW attacks are allocated, RA saves made.
9. Remove any destroyed units.
10. Roll for assault resolution.

The one caveat for me is that it -must- be compatible with the RAW. That is, the rules must be ambiguous about how it is handled. I would need to look into it in more detail to know whether this is the case.

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Not sure about this, I thought that Eldar Aspects were considered to be balanced internally except for Banshees (and possibly Warp Spiders).

Personally I prefer to use Striking Scorpions, Dire Avengers and Fire Dragons together, or Swooping Hawks and Shining Spears separately. I rarely use Warp Spiders and never use Dark Reapers, (though I know others do); which leaves us with the (almost) universally shunned Banshees, the subject of this thread.

I do agree with the argument that people need to adopt the correct tactics when using them; rapid assaults against enemy targets that can be anahilated by the First Strike before the enemy can retaliate (support). However, with CC2+ and Exarch MW, Banshees still seem to underperform against even this modest ideal (mainly because of the potential survival of a target unit), and so appear to need some boost rather than leveling the other Aspects down. This is because Banshees need to place 2 hits on each enemy to ensure it dies, which in turn means the enemy formation must be ~4 units or less (eg scouts, or small Marine formations).

[Spitballing on]

Ok, here is a really wild alternative suggestion. Could we :-


1. Give the Banshee mask "Disrupt", and
2. Add the following unit note
   "In assaults where one side consists of only Howling Banshees and their transport, the Assault Resolution occurs after any round in which either formation becomes broken, otherwise as normal."

The main aim here would be to define a more specific niche role for the Banshees making them truely 'scary', whilst still leaving them fragile in the assault and vulnerable to shooting and 'relataliation'.

Note, even with this I would still like to increase their speed to 20cm and possibly to add 'Infiltrate'.

As blast markers aren't added until after the assault resolution your special rule needs some rewording Ginger