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| Hornet Poll http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=24109 |
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| Author: | Spectrar Ghost [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Hornet Poll |
I'm looking to see what formation and armament people prefer for Hornets; the Mymeara formation or the Saim-Hann formation down-gunned with Twin Bright Lances. This poll will run for two weeks. |
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| Author: | Flogus [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hornet Poll |
Which FF value ? Compendium 2012 is FF5+, Mymeara si FF6+, both for twin pulse laser. |
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| Author: | Spectrar Ghost [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hornet Poll |
FF5+. |
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| Author: | GlynG [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hornet Poll |
I'd rather a third option: with Pulse Lasers, but 250 for 5 rather than 6. Pulse Lasers are the weapons typically seen with Hornets, so should be what the unit has. A formation of 5 light vehicles would reduce the concerns about damage potential and area coverage and make them more vulnerable, but just having 3 light vehicles in a formation would be excessively vulnerable, even for Eldar. I collect Saim-hann and have Hornets, so will be effected by this goes. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hornet Poll |
FF6+ IMO. FF5+ is too good, both for an AT biased tank and for balance too. |
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| Author: | LordotMilk [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hornet Poll |
+1 on the 6+ FF for Twin Pulse lasers Allow them to garrison too, same price. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hornet Poll |
Re-posted from the Mymeara thread: Quote: I compare to a Falcon:
Falcon Type AV Speed 35cm Armour 5+ CC 6+ FF4+ 1x Scatter Laser AP5+ / AT5+ Pulse Laser 2x AT4+ skimmer Hornet Type LV (A lot worse than Falcon) Speed 40cm (+5cm better than Falcon) Armour 4+ (due to LV status, worse than Falcon) CC6+ FF6+ (worse than Falcon) Twin Pulse Laser 2x AT3+ (About the same as a Falcon - see below) Scouts (better than Falcon) Skimmer Falcons are 50pts each, and Hornets are 58pts each. In total, a Falcon generates about the same amount of AT hits as a Hornet: Falcon Sustaining : 1.83 hits Falcon Advancing : 1.33 hits Falcon Doubling : 0.83 hits Hornet Sustaining : 1.66 hits Hornet Advancing : 1.33 hits Hornet Doubling : 1 hit The Falcon also has the option of Firefighting (4+ is not bad, 6+ is bad), and laying the odd AP hit. LV status makes the Hornet much easier to kill. So all that's really better is +5cm speed, and Scout status. I rather suspect that objectors are just looking at the 3+ to-hit rating and panicking, without actually thinking the stats through. :) |
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| Author: | Tiny-Tim [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hornet Poll |
Actually one of things that turned me off this unit was the 2 shots more than the 3+. With the options above for 3 units at 175pts or 6 for 250pts the Hornets immediately drop into my army list as a garrisonning tank/transport killer. Their speed & range can gut most formations of their transports in the first activation. I haven't voted as yet as I'd just want them, want them, want them. With the current stats I'd say that they are worth over 75pts each and possibly close to 100pts. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hornet Poll |
As a formation 3 of them will lay 3 AT hits on the advance, that will not gut much, As a formation of 6, they'd lay 6 AT hits (5 falcons costing the same 250pts would lay 5 hits, but they'd be better in other areas - AV status, FF4+, AP attacks available, Firestorm upgrades available, etc.). And this is the formation size that is losing the vote handily. Mind you I do not think they should be able to garrison, but 75-100pts for a LV with no AP and FF6? I don't see the awesome. 200pts for 3 would be the outside of where to start testing I think. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hornet Poll |
Addendum, at least in the Mymeara list, access to the Hornet comes with some really serious downsides like no Avatar, half the Aspect choices deleted, etc. it's not a token attempt at a variant list that's just normal Eldar but with a different core choice and the lots of extra stuff. |
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| Author: | semajnollissor [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hornet Poll |
The ability to move-shoot-move with better range than a falcon or vyper and do it with a better to-hit value is the reason I dislike the hornet stats. Also, as an LV and not an AV, that means you can pop them out of a wraithgate or storm serpent. Weakness vs AP weapon and and the scout ability are non-issues if you use them to shoot and scoot. And being in a list that has a bunch of restrictions doesn't mean much if the hornets duplicate/improve abilities that the list would still have if they weren't in the list. They need to have a distinct role, and I'm not sure how to achieve that. Going away from the pulse lasers is a good start. I think making them AVs to prevent gate use would also be good. Also, consider the topic in reverse: why would you take vypers or falcons if you had access to hornets? |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hornet Poll |
Quote: I think making them AVs to prevent gate use would also be good. They've got the same armour as a Land Speeder in 40k - they're not AV's. Quote: why would you take vypers or falcons if you had access to hornets? You'd take Falcons in the Mymeara list because they fulfill a different role (and also happen to be a core choice in that list) and come in larger more resilient formations, that also have flexibility (can take Firestorms or Warp Hunters). Vypers have a different role, and are half the points cost of a Hornet. Quote: as an LV and not an AV, that means you can pop them out of a wraithgate or storm serpent. Mymeara list doesn't have Storm Serpents. Quote: being in a list that has a bunch of restrictions doesn't mean much if the hornets duplicate/improve abilities that the list would still have if they weren't in the list. Nope, the Hornet doesn't overwrite anything that's been removed. The abilities lacking in the Mymeara list are numerous and IMO some are serious. Deleted units are: Howling Banshees Shining Spears Striking Scorpions Warp Spiders Avatar Storm Serpent Void Spinner Rangers Warlock Titan That means, - No CC Aspect Warriors in the list - Avatar gone - The two most common SHT's are gone - Plus some less serious losses (Rangers, Warlock, don't appear in every list, but are undoubtedly good choices normally). New units are 3 new tanks and a shooty Aspect Warrior type. |
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| Author: | Flogus [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hornet Poll |
Falcons get Firestorms and have FF4+. Vypers give Jetbikes a shooty ability and keep some FF power (FF5+). If you compare 6 Vypers for 200pts and 6 FF5+ Hornets for 250pts, well, there is no match ... Hornets win. A start for Hornets is FF6+. It won't be useful in assault or support. That is left to the usual eldar units. LV status ? The Hornet is a bit small for an armoured vehicle status. The twin pulse laaser looks scary. Actually not that much as E&C demonstrated it. But unlike Falcons, the Hornets can bump out of a wraithgate ! I think giving is twin bright lance might be a solution. And that weapon looks quite the same as the pulse laser, so the WYSIWYG should not suffered too much. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hornet Poll |
Quote: If you compare 6 Vypers for 200pts and 6 FF5+ Hornets for 250pts, well, there is no match ... Hornets win. Luckily as the poll shows, most people realise that's a daft price point. |
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| Author: | semajnollissor [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hornet Poll |
Hornets are 11/11/10, aren't they? Thats the same armor as a rhino, and those aren't LVs. Sure, in 6th Ed hornets have one less hull point, but I would think being a fast skimmer makes the difference a wash. And anyway, I'm arguing from a balance perspective when it comes to the gate issue. Hornets with 45cm guns moving at 40cm give the eldar a considerable boost with regards to reaching out and touching someone from a gate. I can't think of any other unit that comes close. If you want to keep that ability, I think you need to give the unit it's own weakness and not rely on some engineered weakness in the overall list. Because maybe they could be added to other lists a bit more easily. Otherwise, I suggest that making them armour value 6 AVs. That would give them enough differentiation from both vypers and falcons that I would be okay with them having twin pulse lasers. It would also have the twin benefits of allowing a cheaper point cost and make sure players use them as harassing units instead if assault units. |
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