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Ulthwe Craftworld v4.0
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=24100		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Ulthwe Craftworld v4.0
Here is a PDF of the Ulthwe Craftworld list.

Changes:
Engine of Vaul formation cost: One EoV for250 + 0-2 more at +200 each.
Free Spear of Khaine for Ulthwe Avatar.
Scorpion Pulsars get three shots.
Titan Pulsars get three shots.
Cobras regain Ignore Cover.
Howling Banshees get CC, MW against INF only.

Let me know if you find any typos or errors.

Army unique units can be found on page 3 of the Reference sheets in the OP of the Biel-Tan thread.

Attachments:
Ulthwe4.0List.pdf [116.08 KiB]
Downloaded 680 times
Author:  Ulrik [ Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ulthwe Craftworld v4.0
Ulthwé was knocked back to Developmental due to concern over 1+ init Farsight Black Guardians. I think that's the main thing that needs to be adressed.
Author:  LordotMilk [ Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ulthwe Craftworld v4.0
Ulrik wrote:
Ulthwé was knocked back to Developmental due to concern over 1+ init Farsight Black Guardians. I think that's the main thing that needs to be adressed.


Or not ;)

Strategy rating 5 is arguably less justified, and even then I think the list balanced.

My problem with Ulthwe and Iyanden is the 4 unit aspect warrior troupes, which I find very difficult to use.

I would much rather see them priced at 6 for 225 points, or even 250. I would find them more usable and more balanced. As it is, the only aspects I use at 4 per troupe are the Dark Reapers and a Swooping hawk popcorn.
Author:  Ginger [ Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ulthwe Craftworld v4.0
Though I have not tried this, Chroma really likes mounting aspects in Falcons.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ulthwe Craftworld v4.0
I agree that the 1+ farsight formations are abusable..... 100% dead certain triple-retaining rolling assaults are nasty stuff indeed..... I think the second farseer is enough of a boost myself.....
Author:  Ulrik [ Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ulthwe Craftworld v4.0
LordotMilk wrote:
My problem with Ulthwe and Iyanden is the 4 unit aspect warrior troupes, which I find very difficult to use.

I would much rather see them priced at 6 for 225 points, or even 250. I would find them more usable and more balanced. As it is, the only aspects I use at 4 per troupe are the Dark Reapers and a Swooping hawk popcorn.


The problem with Ulthwé isn't that it is too weak, but that it is too strong. 4 strong Aspects is both a hindrance and a benefit (some work better in 4s, like Hawks and Reapers). The key is 1+ init and Farsight, which some testing has shown to be quite unbalanced (others disagreed). That's what needs to be resolved before Ulthwé can go back to Approved: Is init 1+ Farsight OK, or do Black Guardians need to go down to 2+?

After that 4 or 6 strong Aspects can be looked at, but I think 4 is appropriate going by the background - both Ulthwé and Iyanden has less Aspects than others, and the norm is 6 strong Troupes. Biel-Tan's specialty is Aspects, so they get 8 strong Hosts.
Author:  stompzilla [ Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ulthwe Craftworld v4.0
So surely 6 makes perfect sense.

Their lower numbers are represented by being taken as a support choice, rather than a core choice. If support to core is restricted to 2:1 then I garauntee you'll see less aspects in alternate craftworld lists. Wheras my BT army at 3000pts easily has 16 stands of aspects in it, wheras mu Ulthwe only 6. Even at 3:1 you'll see a lower number of aspect stands with these alternate lists if they are a 6 man support fm with access to 1 exarch for 250pts.

4 strong aspects actually leads to more aspect warriors in these armies because they are easy to pocorn.
Author:  Ulrik [ Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ulthwe Craftworld v4.0
You're comparing Ulthwé to Biel-Tan, which has more Aspects than normal. Alaitoc has an average amount of Aspects, and they have 6 strong Troupes. Biel-Tan is the wrong comparison when you want to find a baseline for Aspects.

It might need to go to 6 for balance reasons, but 4 fits better with the background. Ulthwé also has 2 troupes per host, which makes it difficult to popcorn Aspects. Fitting even 2 formations into an Ulthwé list can be a bit of a challenge.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ulthwe Craftworld v4.0
Uploaded list with some typo corrections to OP. No other changes at this time.
Author:  LordotMilk [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ulthwe Craftworld v4.0
I have read all the threads where people complained about Black Guardians and init 1+

However, considering they cannot be ugraded with Wraithguard and are consequently rubbish at Wraithgate assaults and Vampire assaults, they are only viable in mech lists, which is iconic for Ulthwe.

Considering such lists are really not the best Eldars can field, that init 1+ Black Guardians allow such lists to forego Aspect hosts (which is also iconic for Ulthwe) without losing the necessary 1+ activation that is necessary to start the assault, and that there are many counters to the strategy, I really have not found in practice the Black guardians to be an issue.

On the contrary, they promote Ulthwe style play.

Much more relevant to the deadly triple assault is SR 5 which, though I don't find it unbalanced, can amount to some pretty deadly things, especailly against SR 4 lists which normnally have an even chance with eldar to gain initiative.
Author:  stompzilla [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ulthwe Craftworld v4.0
Really? 1+ activating/retaining Black guardians in wave serpents are my wet dream come true.

Guardians in WS are one of the best point for point engagement fms in the entire game.
Author:  LordotMilk [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ulthwe Craftworld v4.0
Black Guardians in WS are 400 pts.

I don't get your reference that Mech Guardians are the best assault formations out there.

I don't mean this thread to become a cross-list comparison of assault units, but sincerely Scorchas, Chaos Bikes, Necron Phalanxes, Stromtroopers, etc. all seem comparable if not better in assaults than regular guardians.

It's true that on paper Black Guardians are scary, but in practice I have really not found this an issue. As I said, SR 5 is where the list gets powerful.
Author:  Kyrt [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ulthwe Craftworld v4.0
Rug wrote:
Hit and run + Farsight + Commander + 1+ Int + Strat5 + Waveserpents = Extreme silliness!

Yes, all the abilities synergise very well. Optimised for assaulting, wave serpents transform the formation, exactly providing what guardians lack. Minimal risk for a start of turn sweeping assault, and a free avatar to provide the first 1+ activation to boot. Too easy :).
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