I don't like the fact you use the words "nobody ever takes them" as they get used regularly where we are. The Eldar do not need any more crutches thanks.
I'm betting that the majority voting in this poll are Eldar players...
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| Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=23972 |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll |
Perceived problem : Nobody ever takes multiple EoV's in a single formation. (except Dobby's mates!) Proposed solution : Perhaps a discount could be adopted for the larger formations, like how Warhound Titans and IG Super Heavy Tanks and larger Ork formations all get discounts to compensate for the loss of the extra activations. The exact size of any potential discount can be locked in later if people want one, but something like 250/450/625 would probably be ok IMO. Clicky-vote and/or discuss. |
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| Author: | Man of kent [ Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll |
I regularly wish to take a twin formation of Cobra's for the far superior Barrage; but feel I can never justify the cost for such a fragile formation especially in smaller games. With the other types of EoV taking multiples would still be worth discounting in my opinion merely due to the lack of activations this brings the player... ...a bit like Warhounds now: whilst this change was wrought by UPping the cost of a SINGLE warhound and leaving the price of two similar 2 single warhounds are defnintley worth more than a group of 2. The same applies to almost all superheavies. R> |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll |
While I understand the desire to make multiple EoV more attractive, I am not sure that discounting them is sensible, not least because some scale better than others. Given the proposed increase to the Scorpion, this will tend to make three Scorpions more attractive anyway, without the discount. |
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| Author: | LordotMilk [ Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll |
Ginger wrote: While I understand the desire to make multiple EoV more attractive, I am not sure that discounting them is sensible, not least because some scale better than others. Given the proposed increase to the Scorpion, this will tend to make three Scorpions more attractive anyway, without the discount. Why? as opposed to 3x1? |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll |
With decent dice, the 9x 3+MW shots (preferably at 75cm range), this will be able to wipe out a complete Tactical formation each turn, or 900 points excluding any upgrades; the same will be true for many other formations. Although 5+ RA is not the best armour, 9x units will make it quite durable as well. Three Void Spinners with two additional templates and disrupt is also quite tasty, though perhaps not quite as powerfull. Given these circumstances, 750 seems correct and possibly even slightly under-costed when compared with Leman Russ or even Medium titans. That said, the other EOV are less usefull in three's or combinations - Three Cobras or Storm Serpents really only provide resiliance, and mixing them together or with the other EoV tends to dilute the impact of both types. |
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| Author: | semajnollissor [ Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll |
Ginger wrote: With decent dice, the 9x 3+MW shots (preferably at 75cm range), this will be able to wipe out a complete Tactical formation each turn... That is unlikely, given that the scorpions will most likely have doubled (-1 to-hit), and the tacticals a will probably be in cover (another -1 to-hit). Sure, if the tacticals are hanging out in the open within the scorpions' line of sight, they'd be in trouble, which is the way it ought to be. Technically, tacticals with a few razorback could wipe out a three-strong EoV formation, but that is unlikely as well. As with big and 'uge ork formations, I think a discount should be given for multiple-EoV formations (and should be given to any equivalent formation in the rest of the armies in the game). EDIT: In fact, I'd go so far to say that anytime any given formation is upgraded to a point where it is more than twice its base cost, then it should get a 10% discount, and if it is upgraded to a point where it is more than three times its base cost, then it should get a 20% discount. [all discount percentages are rough guesses] Otherwise, smaller formations will always have an advantage due to their associated increase in activation count. |
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| Author: | Andrew_NZ [ Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll |
The Yme-Loc Army List has Engines of Vaul Warhosts at a discount, 2 EoV for 450 points (and a core formation). Nobody else seems to have commented on this during the debate. Does anybody else have experience with this? I have put together a few 3000 pt forces with this Army List, mostly so that I could have pairs of Cobras at a reasonable discount. The one game I've managed gave me some hope for the Cobra pairs (provided the enemy has some war-engines to go a-hunting). I'd like to be able to do the same thing with Farseers in Guardian formations for a more heavy front line assault list. Hence my vote for discounts. |
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| Author: | Irisado [ Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll |
Would it be feasible to apply the cost reduction for multiple engines to the formations where it would be less likely to have a possible impact of making the formations too powerful? I would advocate testing it on the Cobra (since single Cobras are pretty tough to use effectively), and perhaps the Scorpion, depending on how the possible changes to its stats are received after play testing. |
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| Author: | Dobbsy [ Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll |
I don't like the fact you use the words "nobody ever takes them" as they get used regularly where we are. The Eldar do not need any more crutches thanks. I'm betting that the majority voting in this poll are Eldar players...
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll |
Edited first post to reflect Dobbsy's concerns. :-) |
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| Author: | novemberrain [ Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll |
I play Eldar regularly, and voted no... |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll |
ditto . . . |
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| Author: | Irisado [ Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll |
Dobbsy wrote: I don't like the fact you use the words "nobody ever takes them" as they get used regularly where we are. The Eldar do not need any more crutches thanks. I'm betting that the majority voting in this poll are Eldar players... Very clever, I like of your quip .Just to further counter the hypothesis, I haven't even voted, and I doubt that I will, as I'm not convinced either way, especially in view of the ongoing discussions to possibly change the stats for the Cobra and the Scorpion. |
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| Author: | Dobbsy [ Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll |
You spelt my name wrong! I'm not a Harry Potter character 
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| Author: | Kyrt [ Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Discount for multiple EoV's simple yes/no poll |
No doubt there will be some combinations better than others, but that's still the case at the moment and indeed is never going to be any different, so I'm not sure it's a logical argument against applying a small discount. Once again, perfect is the enemy of the good here I feel. If there were a specific combination that were undercosted at a given points cost, of course it would need to be considered. But personally I can't think of any combination of two EoV's that is internally balanced at 500 points, nor any combination of three at 750. Presumably some others must disagree with that assertion? I can only say it is by no means a slam dunk for me that 3 scorpions is worth more than 2 revenants, and certainly not 100 points more. |
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