Tactical Command
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Overperforming Units
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=23930		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  LordotMilk [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Overperforming Units
Continuing debate from another thread, there has been statements that Eldar, and BT in particular have overperforming units.

What are they?

IMHO only the Avatar is overperforming but people are not happy about giving him a point cost.

Thoughts?
Author:  kyussinchains [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overperforming Units
I don't think there were statements saying any units are overperforming, but rather as an approach to list revision, ie. the general idea with list revision isn't to look at the underperforming units, but start with overperforming ones

from the large number of eldar threads you've started recently, from banshees to cobras to scorpions.....it seems that nothing is overperforming in your view.... ;)

edit: I am just kidding around, that's not meant to be a dig at you in any way
Author:  LordotMilk [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overperforming Units
kyussinchains wrote:
I don't think there were statements saying any units are overperforming, but rather as an approach to list revision, ie. the general idea with list revision isn't to look at the underperforming units, but start with overperforming ones

from the large number of eldar threads you've started recently, from banshees to cobras to scorpions.....it seems that nothing is overperforming in your view.... ;)

edit: I am just kidding around, that's not meant to be a dig at you in any way


I think the Avatar is overperforming.

I also think Air Aussaults are too cheap throughout all lists. But admittedly Vampires are not the ones to start with.
Author:  LordotMilk [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overperforming Units
Novemberrterrain believes Wraithguard, Void Spinners and the Warlock are overperforming.

I don't understand how Wraithguard are overperforming, I have seen them in less that 1 in 10 games with BT played. Is there an issue with Iyanden?

Void Spinners are mostly good because of their comparative resilience with other artillery. But they are mostly good as BM placers, as they are not particularly killy.

Warlock. Well I have to admit he's awesome sometimes. But other times he just loses a turn to get in range, then does his shooting and kills 3-4 stands, followed by the failed activation of some guardians and that's it for the game. He also costs 850 points and has only 6 DC with little resilience against regular FF attacks. If anyhting should be considered, it's perhaps a tweak of the gauntlet or the removal of Inspiring, but this might result in him not being played at all, like all the other big Titans.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overperforming Units
little resilience against FF attacks??? 3+ holofield and 5+ armour is pretty resilient to me!

I agree that he's an all-or-nothing choice, but there are things that can be done (scout screens to delay, deathstrikes to damage)

void spinners aren't overperforming, they're just a good artillery unit with a decent range in a high SR army, that boosts their effectiveness but doesn't make them overperform.... spaceships with pinpoint attacks LOVE to see a void spinner or two.....
Author:  Steve54 [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overperforming Units
Unless you're using a mech guardian list then IMO the avatar is useless. I take guardians for farsight not the avatar in any other build
Author:  LordotMilk [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overperforming Units
kyussinchains wrote:
little resilience against FF attacks??? 3+ holofield and 5+ armour is pretty resilient to me!



Warlock costs 850 points. Compare his resilience with Warlord Titans or Great Gargants....

He gets shot down to pieces by large amounts of FF. Try assaulting him With a DKoK Infantry company and you'll see what I mean.
Author:  Steve54 [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overperforming Units
That rather depends on how many hits the holofield save
Author:  Irisado [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overperforming Units
The Avatar has never done very much for me, so I don't see where the notion that it is too effective comes from.

None of the Eldar units which I have used has seemed too powerful to me, and I have a substantial collection of models.

The only units which I have never used are: Shining Spears, Warp Spiders, the Void Spinner, the Storm Serpent, the Vampire, and the spacecraft.
Author:  LordotMilk [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overperforming Units
Steve54 wrote:
Unless you're using a mech guardian list then IMO the avatar is useless. I take guardians for farsight not the avatar in any other build


Is there any BT unit you feel is overperforming?
Author:  Steve54 [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overperforming Units
No some units just fit better into the list or perform a more important role.

I'm just wary of so many boosts to units
Author:  kyussinchains [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overperforming Units
LordotMilk wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
little resilience against FF attacks??? 3+ holofield and 5+ armour is pretty resilient to me!



Warlock costs 850 points. Compare his resilience with Warlord Titans or Great Gargants....

He gets shot down to pieces by large amounts of FF. Try assaulting him With a DKoK Infantry company and you'll see what I mean.


20 DKoK will generate 6.66 hits, 4.44 of which will be saved by the holofield, the armour then pushes the remaining 2.22 to 1.48, so rounding up, the warlock will take a couple of DC, it will then get 11 attacks of its own hitting on 3+, which will kill 7.33 guardsmen, rounding down to 7 still gives it a +5 advantage on kills, even if it's prepped and the krieg have no BMs the titan STILL wins by 1...... (krieg get +2 for double outnumber and +2 advantage of no blast markers)

don't forget also that a walock can be part of a triple retain action, can summon the avatar, and can move after firing, and consolidate his full move......

edit: which was my experience of throwing a steel legion mechanised infantry company at the thing....
Author:  LordotMilk [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overperforming Units
Steve54 wrote:
No some units just fit better into the list or perform a more important role.

I'm just wary of so many boosts to units


Honestly, I dont think any of the curent discussion threads are going to lead to an actual change without some sort of ERC decision.

Maybe out of the 10 topics discussed 4 or 5 will lead to proper playtesting, and 1-2 to will lead to an actual change. But at least the whole list will have been reviewed, and in 4 more years we could relate to the current debates for inspiration.

A review every 4 years seems reasonable to me, even for BT, no?
Author:  carlos [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overperforming Units
It's fine to have shit units in army lists. Everybody knows what they are and if they want an extra challenge can take them. It's so spread across all lists that I'd consider it a feature of list design.
Also we're very myopic about 3k GTS games and what's good for those and never consider other scenarios and point levels.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overperforming Units
carlos wrote:
It's fine to have shit units in army lists. Everybody knows what they are and if they want an extra challenge can take them. It's so spread across all lists that I'd consider it a feature of list design.
Also we're very myopic about 3k GTS games and what's good for those and never consider other scenarios and point levels.


^this, this is such a great point^
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