Tactical Command
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Phantom Titan Pulsars
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=23726		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  LordotMilk [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  Phantom Titan Pulsars
Hello,

Another underplayed otpion on all Titans is the Phantom/Archon Pulsar.

It is never played on the Archon, being an Assault Titan par excellence, and one always takes the Gauntlet on the Phantom because the only way to make that Titan worthy of its points investment is to support Assaults.

However the niche of the Phantom is precisely long range fire support. Note that I don't think the Phantom is overcosted. Though one would nearly always spend the extra 100 pts for the Archon in a competitive list, the Gauntlet Phantom performs adequately for its point cost.

The issue is that perhaps the Phantom could be a vlaid alternative to the archon, and give an extra option to eldar armies if the 2 Pulsar build would be viable. It is not today, mainly because both the Gauntlet armament AND the Revenant armament are straightforward better options.

F-ERC have given the Pulsar an extra attack. My issue with that is that it gives a huge incentive to sustain, which is not an Eldar tactic. Also, 3 attacks is not really coherent with the 2 hits pulse rule.

I suggest we make the Pulsar a TK (1d2) instead of (1).

It would stay in line with its current design, and be picked as a really nice anti WE Heavy support option. Armed with two such pulsars the Fire support Phantom becomes a viable alternative. We may even see a Pulsar Archon from time to time.

Thoughts?
Author:  Irisado [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Pulsars
By Archon do you mean Warlock? I assume that you must, and that the wording got somewhat lost in translation ;).

As for the proposed change, I've used the Pulsar equipped Phantom Titan, and I was quite happy with its fire support role in terms of the damage it can deal. It didn't fit my style of play, which is why I stopped using it, but I certainly don't feel that it requires a rules change.

I'm also pretty sure that the Phantom Titan was discussed during one of the previous revisions to the Eldar army list, and nothing came of it.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Pulsars
Quote:
As for the proposed change, I've used the Pulsar equipped Phantom Titan, and I was quite happy with its fire support role in terms of the damage it can deal

Interesting statistic, a Phantom Titan with 2x Pulsars will kill exactly the same amount of units as a pair of Revenant Titans with 4x Revenant Pulsars if the target has 4+ Reinforced Armour.

Against any lesser armour type (4+, 5+RA, 3+, etc), the Revenants will kill more units, or cause more DC of damage.


So basically, you pay a lot more for a twin Pulsar Phantom Titan, but against most targets it kills less when it shoots than a pair of Revenants, and even against RA4+ it only kills the same amount of units.

All you get out of the deal is a little extra range (largely inconsequential due to the Revenant's faster speed and jump packs), and a tad extra survivability (not that much though, especially if a critical hit occurs as then the Phantom is easy meat whilst the Revenants will still have one active holofield).
Author:  novemberrain [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Pulsars
Evil and Chaos wrote:

All you get out of the deal is a little extra range (largely inconsequential due to the Revenant's faster speed and jump packs), and a tad extra survivability (not that much though, especially if a critical hit occurs as then the Phantom is easy meat whilst the Revenants will still have one active holofield).



You also get a little extra suppression resistance, but I agree with you. The Phantom with pulsars can be good (a friend, losthobbit, regulary beats me using one :( ) but it is simply not as good as Revenants, or for a small amount more, the Warlock.
Author:  Chroma [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Pulsars
LordotMilk wrote:
F-ERC have given the Pulsar an extra attack. My issue with that is that it gives a huge incentive to sustain, which is not an Eldar tactic. Also, 3 attacks is not really coherent with the 2 hits pulse rule.

I think that Titan Pulsars, and the Scorpion, should probably be boosted to 3 x shots vs the current 2 x; the blanket "pulse becomes 2 x" rules change didn't really take into account the better to-hit numbers of some of the pulse weapons and, since the offending units had been priced with the thought they'd get more shots in their original incarnations, they have suffered a bit with the blanket rule change.

I'd highly recommend testing 3 x shots, I don't think it'll incentivize sustaining as the Titan will still get decent to-hit numbers on an advance.
Author:  LordotMilk [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Pulsars
Chroma wrote:
LordotMilk wrote:
F-ERC have given the Pulsar an extra attack. My issue with that is that it gives a huge incentive to sustain, which is not an Eldar tactic. Also, 3 attacks is not really coherent with the 2 hits pulse rule.

I think that Titan Pulsars, and the Scorpion, should probably be boosted to 3 x shots vs the current 2 x; the blanket "pulse becomes 2 x" rules change didn't really take into account the better to-hit numbers of some of the pulse weapons and, since the offending units had been priced with the thought they'd get more shots in their original incarnations, they have suffered a bit with the blanket rule change.

I'd highly recommend testing 3 x shots, I don't think it'll incentivize sustaining as the Titan will still get decent to-hit numbers on an advance.


Fair enough.

On Scorpions too, I understand?
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Pulsars
LordotMilk wrote:
On Scorpions too, I understand?

For experimental playtesting, yes, please try it out on them as well.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Pulsars
Just for comparison:
Wh40k stats:

Pulsar
Range: 60", Strength: D, Armourpiercing: 2, Heavy 2, 5" Blast, Primary Weapon
Revenant and Scorpion use the same weapon with the exception that the Scorpion's Pulsar is Twin-linked.

The Phantom uses this:
Phantom Pulsar
Range: 120", Strength: D, Armourpiercing: 1, Heavy 4, 5" Blast, Primary Weapon

So the Phantom's Phantom Pulsar has double the range and double the shots compared to the "generic" Pulsar. The better Armoupiercing value makes it a bit extra killy on vehicles and war engines.
Author:  Irisado [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Pulsars
I wouldn't advocate using Apocalypse rules as being a good example on how Epic rules should be altered. Apocalypse is not a well balanced game.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Pulsars
Because of this i don't quote points cost ;)
Author:  Dirty Boots [ Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Pulsars
Hi, i'm not really new on the board but when the TC switch for an another server i lost my id and can't recover it.

Well, i'm the frenchy who's initiate the modifications of the pulsar between the phantom and the SHT Scorpion.

We give the TK(1) ability to the scorpion with a rate to hit of 3+ and we give 3 attacks and MA ability to the phantom's pulsar with a rate to hit of 3+ too. Why ?

1st, we think the scorpion he's the natural heir of the antic SHT Tempest in Epic Space Marine version. So for this reason, it seemed logical to give him a TK armament.

2nd, we believe that the phantom is not sexy enough with only 4 shots (even though it was TK). As compared to its counterpart in space marine, he had lost much firepower in the direction of the quantity. That is why we gave him 3 shots per pulsar matching with the MA ability to offset this increase in firing rate.

Hope that will help you.

Cya
Author:  Ginger [ Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Pulsars
I agree that increasing the titan pulsars and Scorpion to 3x shots is well worth testing.
(I presume this would not apply to the Revenant pulsars).

This would make the Phantom much more viable at long range shooting, which would be a good differentiator from the Warlock. If this proves a bit OTT, then consider reducing it's CC capability in some way.

However, while I agree that the Scorpion also needs 3x shots, I am less sure about adding TK1. This was not part of the original stats, even if the Scorpion is the replacement to the Tempest. Lets try without for now, Ok?
Author:  Chroma [ Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Pulsars
Ginger wrote:
I agree that increasing the titan pulsars and Scorpion to 3x shots is well worth testing.
(I presume this would not apply to the Revenant pulsars).


Revenants would not get their shots increased.

I'll be posting a "Eldar things to playtest" list in the near future.
Author:  LordotMilk [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Pulsars
Chroma wrote:
Ginger wrote:
I agree that increasing the titan pulsars and Scorpion to 3x shots is well worth testing.
(I presume this would not apply to the Revenant pulsars).


Revenants would not get their shots increased.

I'll be posting a "Eldar things to playtest" list in the near future.



Thank you
Author:  LordotMilk [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Pulsars
Are people satisfied with a test drive at 3x MW 3+ TK(1) ?

Or do people still think the internal balance issues would not be fixed, and the Pulsar should be upgraded some more?

Perhaps make the to-hit value 2+?

Perhaps 4 shots?
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