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Cobra SHT

 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:31 pm 
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Sorry but there's no way I would pay double the 250 points to simply add an extra blast marker. That would be madness.

But I am not bothered at all by the lack of appeal of twin Cobras. As I said before, I'd rather at least be able to field one than worry about whether twins and triples are all competitive - if it is OK for the other EoV I don't see why this should block us from fixing the Cobra. And when the time comes (i.e. later) the fix is the same for all EoV - discounts for multiples.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:35 pm 
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Quote:
if it is OK for the other EoV I don't see why this should block us from fixing the Cobra.

It's not ok for the others - none of them are worth taking in doubles or triples IMO.

Quote:
the fix is the same for all EoV - discounts for multiples.

Agreed.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:23 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:18 pm 
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It's always a bit silly to post only "I agree" but...

I agree. Discounts for multiples.

250 for one, 200 for extras (start at 225 if you want to be conservative). Incidentally, Warhounds now have a 50pts discount on the second one in a pack. Imperial superheavies have always had a 50pts discount (200 + 150*2 = 500), in addition to groups unlocking support options while singletons cost a support slot.

Another way to look at it: It costs 50 pts just for having an activation of war engines. Not unreasonable IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:31 am 
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So I played Eldar vs Marines today, trying out the Scorpion with 3x2+ MW with 60cm range. I doubled on the first turn and managed to see a transported unit of marines at the end of my pop up move. Killed 3 Rhinos, and 6 tacticals, then poped down behind a midfield hill.

The scorpion was later broken in the second turn, and rallied to kill 2 predators on the third, where the game ended.

Impressions: I was really happy to field it, and a real impression of power when wielding it. Thats a huge plus compared to before. It was very effective in the game, maybe because the marine placement was not optimal (ie transported marines vs. it). Perhaps the 2+ base is a bit too strong perhaps not, I'll try it some more.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:15 am 
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Rug wrote:
Agreed. Discounts for multiples please!


I would agree, but really I don't think they ever be picked as multiples, even at a bigger discount than 50 an extra.

The Storm serpent is all about mobile gating, and therefore tactical flexibility commands that you use them in singles.

The Void Spinner has 3 BP, so adding figures only adds templates and BMs, and extra templates are ht evast majority of times less effective than the first one, if effective at all (small formations).

Then there are the Cobra and the Scorpion, which with their current stats are not worth taking as singles, and taking multiples only makes matters worse, even at a discount.

Apart for the Storm Serpent, they are all fire support units, and therefore benefit mostly from giving extra activations to the Eldar. The main advantage of having two+ is the resislience it brings to the formation, but as they are not supposed to be close to the front line, that resilience is worth less than the extra activations.

So, the issues that I wished to bring up really had more to do wth the stat line than the point cost. And though bargain multiples would always be nice to have (in theory), will not change much at all in practice.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:06 am 
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Surely the feedback for the Scorpion belongs in this thread?

There is a lot of wishlisting for rules changes to the Cobra going on here. I don't find any of most recent suggestions for changing the rules compelling. Play testing the revised points system for war engine formations would seem like a good place to start, rather than tinkering with the rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:54 am 
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after 6 pages of discussion, isn't the cobra more about what it might do, rather than what it can do? it's great when they get to fire and blow huge chunks out of titans, but I think the psychological effect of a cobra lurking around is one of its great strengths.....

as soon as I get some models, I plan to start making use of them as much as possible

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:20 pm 
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All Eldar formations work better with multiple formations, which magnifies their potential and impact, They also have to fit within the chosen strategy for the army, the Cobra more than the others. Using a singleton is a waste of points because of the limited impact it will have (wrong location, failed activation etc).

Only Scorpions and Storm Serpents are worth considering in multiples because their impact is truely scaleable - especially with 3x shots per Scorpion.

Cobra must retain IC to be effective (and it is a D cannon after all), but really does NOT need 3BP. Don't forget that the D cannon is also very effective against non-titan formations which get no save except for 'invulnerable'.

Rug is totally spot on about opponents reactions and Cobra survivability, and you need to build this into the tactics; move the Cobras into cover - losing the dangerous terrain test is no real problem. Also, the Eldar work best when using the synergies between formation capabilities, so keep the Cobras relatively near each other and protect them with several other formations (Guardians, Falcons, Rangers etc).

I repeat, please try increasing the range to 45cms as the least impact improvement together with modifying your tactics to make best use of the formations.

As to impact, I have regularly taken down large titans with them, but only when I had three in the army specifically for the purpose, which at an investment of 750 points seems about right.


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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:43 am 
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With an appropriate discount I could see uses for all four SHT's in multiples.

I'd suggest:
250pts for 1
450 pt for 2
600 pt for 3

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:20 am 
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650 pt for 3 would be the right and the fair cost IMHO

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:23 am 
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Rug wrote:
Why would no one take Void Spinner multiples? I would do it to cram as much firepower into the first three activations of the game, something like:

Big Space Ship
Void Spinner pair or trio
Revenants/Orbital dropping Rangers or Dark Reapers in a Vampire/Void Spinner pair or trio.
(best using Ulthwe)

That would put BMs on maybe 5 or more enemy formations before they'd even had a chance to activate, that would seriously impair or even cripple an opposing Eldar or Guard army. With the Ranger option I'd have a good chance at sniping the Supreme Commander with a sustain action.

I don't disagree with the theory, though in practice a pair of Void Spinners has roughly the same impact as two singletons, generating the same number of BMs, but with the singletons getting one extra activation and greater target selection at the cost of slightly less resilience. The big issue here is that the Barrage mechanics are not truely scaleable, so whilst you may place two or even three templates and gain additional BMs for size, in practice Void Spinners are often better employed as singletons which gives better coverage of the battlefield, do not make a potential BTS (and thereby do not affect the army selections), and perhaps most importantly allows several enemy formations to be disrupted rather than just one.

So, this actually boils down to the question, 'what price for an activation'? is it worth 25, 50 or even 100 points?
That is the value that should be allowed for multiple EoV - IF appropriate, and I am not convinced that it is ;)


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