So, now having a few games under my belt, and not being able to find any relatively recent threads discussing this list, I thought it might be worth posting some of the thoughts I've been having about how the list works (or in some cases, doesn't). I realise that the list is effectively set in stone for the next year, but there are a few things I feel worthy of discussion (if they've already been discussed, I'd love some links to where; as I said, I've been unable to find any recent threads).

Firstly, and most importantly I think, Vypers. In short, their use seems far more limited than it should be. Vypers are supposed to be mobile weapons platforms, and Saim-Hann is supposed to make a lot of use of them, but I'm finding it hard to give them a place other than generating BMs from their token firing efforts. Adding one Vyper to a jetbike squadron is fairly standard practice for most Eldar lists, but beyond that they don't feel particularly useful. In every case I can think of, I'd prefer to have jetbikes in my Windrider/Wild Rider troupes: the single 5+ shot at 30cm just isn't as useful as the Jetbike's 4+ FF. I'd like pure Vyper squadrons to be viable as a mobile firebase, but given they'll normally be doubling, the average one hit from a troupe just isn't worth the 200/250pts you pay for them. I'm not entirely sure how this could be fixed: increasing the range of their weapons might make Advances as sometimes sensible alternative to Doubles, and increasing the power of their scatterlasers to 4+ would probably be effective, but would feel out-of-character with Scatterlasers everywhere else in the list.
In a Saim-Hann list, 6 Vypers in a Wild Rider Host costs the same as 5 Falcons, but the Vypers are no faster, probably more vulnerable (better save, but on a LV), and far less effective at shooting.

The other issue I have with the list is the replacement of Vampire Raiders with a 2-for-500pts squadron of Vampire Hunters. Firstly, it strikes me as odd that Raiders aren't available for use: although Aspect and Guardian Warhosts are required to run with Wave Serpents (I believe this was the initial reason for their removal), it would seem sensible to allow them not to do so if they begin the game in a Vampire Raider. As it stands, Saim Hann is the only Eldar list other than Fir Iolarion not capable of launching Air Assaults: this certainly makes sense for a Titan Clan, but less so for a hit-and-run Windhost. Secondly, and more practically, the cost of the squadron makes Vampires hard to use at 3k. At 500 points, there're only two options in the list that could cost more to be the BTS: Revenants (can't be taken alongside Vampires at 3k), and large Wild Rider hosts, meaning that unless you feel like a tooled up Wild Rider Host, your Vampire squadron may well be your BTS. Allowing them to be fielded 1-for-250 points or similar (or even 1 for 275, 2 for 500) would let Vampire Hunters see the table far more often.

Other than those two things, I've been loving the feel of the list, and would like to thank those who wrote it .

I always think of Vypers as the HMGs of the Windrider's Infantry Companies: not very numerous, but there should always be some around. They should be able to lay down supressing fire when needed, but should not be the primary killers. In this role they do an admirable job. Comparing Falcons to Vypers is like comparing Humvees with M2s to Abrams. The Humvee should protect it's unit as it gets into postion, but should not be able to slug it out with the big boys like an Abrams.

The role I see for Vypers is to lose a pip or two of FF in engage in order to get a few ranged shots. Protection on the way in or out, and the possibility of an opportunity kill, but they are not suited to be an offensive weapon any more than they are in 40k.

I do like the idea of singles of Hunters - I thought they were but have never been able to scrape enough bikers together to justify looking too closely at Saim Han.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I hear your pain. In smaller games I will only take one or two Vipers in a formation. In larger games I will take the same one or two and have a dedicated Viper formation. Yes they are not brilliant, but they have the same shooting stats as heavy weapon platforms so they are correct. On low SR armies I'll take a risk and as an end move position them to fire at the start of the next turn or against higher SR armies hid them within 65cm so that they can advance to behind some scenery, pop up and then fire.

I also hear you on the Vam Raiders, but testing showed that singles were too good and people would pay a premium to take them, 300pts for 1 and I'd still take two. Don't forget that although S-H can't do air assaults they are still able to use Portals and as such I love to use Storm Serpents although others will confirm the howls of anguish that I give out when the engagement goes wrong or that I can't even activate the formations. You should also note that Vam Raiders can't be your BTS as they can't land so don't worry about that.

Spectrar: Whilst I agree that Vypers shouldn't act as MBTs, I do feel that they should be able to exist independently from jetbikes. In 40k, Vyper squadrons can be very damaging in their own right: back when the Craftworlds had their own codex, a friend of mine ran a Vyper-based army with great success. Individually they may not be particularly powerful, but when massed together (and using their different weapon options) they could use their speed to bring a lot of firepower down in one area. This is how I'd like to see them in Epic, but as things are they simply don't have the firepower to do it (you seem to see them differently, as guardians for "their unit", meaning jetbikes).
Basically, I'd like to see all-Vyper squadrons a viable tool for hit-and-run shooting: in their current form, this just isn't effective. Using their current statline, Vypers need to be far cheaper to be effective in a shooting role (which obviously doesn't work in the current equivalent-with-jetbikes framework without undercosting bikes). A dedicated Vyper squadron of, say, 6 Vypers for 150 points could perhaps work, although that feels like something of a crude solution.

EDIT for TinyTim: Out of interest, how've you found all-vyper formations? I've tried using them once, and been underwhelmed with the firepower coming out, especially as for the same price I could've taken another 5-bikes, 1-Vyper formation which is generally far more useful. On Vampires, while I can see that singles would be quite powerful, doubles seem almost unuseable (at least, at 3k. At higher point levels, I'd certainly be more inclined to take them). Also, I don't really agree with your reasoning against V Raiders: every Eldar army can use Portals, but I don't see why S-H should be the one conventional (as in, non-Titans) list not to be able to launch air assaults as well. I love the idea of an aircav-type force, and combined with how fast the rest of the list is I think it'd complement the bikes perfectly; the idea of a semi-piratical army like Saim-Hann using static portals also seems a bit off.
With respect to the BTS thing, my mistake; I was under the impression that your largest formation was the BTS target, simple.

I think one of the problems with Vypers versus 40k is the fixed loadout. If Vypers were allowed to take Bright Lances, they would have more utility in shooting, but it could screw with the pricing structure. Would it be preferable? I'm not convinced, especially with the AT niche well and firmly covered by the Falcon in Eldar lists. I personally would never take them, because they'd be trying to do a job the falcon does so much better.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I'll admit that when I first started using BT and then other lists I didn't consider an all Viper formation as a viable option. Yme-Loc showed me the error of my ways in a tournament a number of years ago where he used all Vipers in a formation. They weren't devestating, but there were too many other things that I had to target that they were able to place blast markers and swoop on some of my smaller formations, I even have a dim recollection that in one turn they were able to sustain on one of my formations which came as a bit of a shock.

My first few games with an all Viper formation were disasters for the formation. I over committed them and regularly tried to take on formations that were too tough for them to stand off against. Now I use them to hit broken formations or hit and run small formations to then place them in support for the main jetbike formations. Not as good as using jetbikes to support, but the shooting before hand more than makes up for this. A final reason for taking more than one viper is so that you can still shoot something even if you have a BM on your formation.

On the VHunter front, don't forget that lists are balanced for between 3-5k points and you should consider what a meta-player like myself would do with 1600pts of VHunters in a 5k game. If single Hunters were priced at 275 I could have 6 of them raining MW2+ shots down on you. On the lack of including Raiders it came down to a judgement on whether there should be formations which could be on foot or not. As this is supposed to be an all mounted list this restriction was added. If you and your opponents are happy to diverge from this list there is nothing to stop you from doing so and playing VHunters and VRaiders in the same army could be undertaken.

On the portal front, S-H give you the opportunity to have a 17 unit formation come out of a portal in one go, expensive I know (600pts), but no other list, that I'm familiar with, gives you this ability.

Don't forget that the Hornet Troupe have been added as well & they are a nasty little addition.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Jianaran is correct. Aircraft (as far as I recall) can be BTS. And what's worse, they're the worst kind of BTS. If they're killed, they count. And if they're not killed, they don't count (not on table). So it means, with a Vampire Raider formation, and a 475pt Wild Rider formation, if either is killed, you count as having lost your BTS.

This has been discussed before, either for the Tau AX-10's, or the Chaos WE Bomber (Harbinger). As far as I know, only Spacecraft are disqualified from being BTS.

Morgan Vening

Nothing off-board can be BTS. That includes aircraft, since they will be off-board at the end of the End Phase when goals are checked. FAQ:

This was brought up in the discussions I mentioned. The problem with that FAQ entry is, if the flying formation is killed, it's killed on board, and therefore should count. Now, maybe that's not the way it's supposed to be interpreted, but it's definitely the way it has been interpreted in the past. So an update to the FAQ entry might be warranted if that's the way it's intended.

Found it. The discussion is here.

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18489

Morgan Vening

neal: thanks for that clarification. I'd been under the same impression as Morgan: basically, that aircraft BTSes were to be avoided at all costs.

I suppose that Hornets are actually pretty close to my idealised role of Vypers; I hadn't really considered them due to the lack of models. AT only is a bit of a shame, but they certainly pack a punch. I do feel that the issue is still there in the other Eldar lists, though: the role of fast-moving, fragile, hard-hitting (I think I just described the whole Eldar army...) raiders, which is filled by Vypers in 40k, doesn't really seem to be present. Tim, while you say you've had some success with Vyper formations, I just don't see how they're going to pull their weight: 6 Vypers will average 2 hits on an Advance (which really requires isolated enemy formations or great cover), and 1 on the more normal Double. Another possible solution (again, I understand that the lists aren't likely to be changed any time soon) would be to give them two shots: this is quite fluffy (scatterlasers are supposed to fire pretty fast), and would bring them slightly closer to Hornets. If Hornets are 250pts for effectively a Vyper with Scout and a 2-shot AT3+ at 45cm, 200pts for the same number of Vypers firing 2-shots at AP/AT5+ at 30cm seems reasonably in line, trading AT power and range for greater flexibility. Of course, it's also possible that Hornets are horribly overpowered, and as soon as models hit the community it's going to become an issue .

Heading back to Vampire Hunters: Tim, you say that 6 at 5k would dominate a game; is having them available as 6 individual aircraft really that different from 3 squadrons of two? If so, perhaps there's a more fundamental problem with the power level of Vampire Hunters here. As most people play the game at 3k, simply accepting that a formation is nearly impossible to field at that level (if I've misread what you're saying feel free to call me out) seems a bit of a weak option. Saim-Hann is focused on the bikes, not the aircraft: having an aircraft that seemingly is either left at home or dominates games it's taken in seems a bit of an odd thematic choice.

That's the way I've always done it, and that seems to be the consensus in the thread you linked.


Fair enough. You should probably post this to the FAQ "to do" thread.

Also, a semi-related question for something I've just noticed: In the original Biel-Tan list and the 2012 Compendium, Jetbikes have a 4+ save. In the latest CWE compendium, it appears to be 5+ (although Wild Riders still seem to have 4+). Would someone mind clarifying just what's correct and what's incorrect here?

Sometimes it a question of looking at what will work and what won't. I would ask you consider the most iconic model in the game, the Warlord. It is considered difficult to fit it into a 3k army. It happens, but not a lot and is not as successfull as using 2 or three Warhounds. With regard to three pairs of Hunters or 6 individuals, if I could take 6 it would give me 3 extra activations and I would be able to target 6 of your small formations instead of only 3. Obivious I know, but even using them against the same formation I can still place 3 extra blast markers which over three turns will break most formations if not worse.

This is the same problem that we had with Revenants. I would love to be able to field these as singles but even I can admit that they would be over powered.

Jetbikes were dropped to a 5+ save to make Saim Hann a viable list to construct. Jetbikes were being used as assault initiators backed up with supporting fire, dropping the save meant that players had to be more carefull with how the formation was used.

@400pts?

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