Tactical Command :: View topic

Do they have to be 3? Why not 2?

3's are holy to the Eldar.

Nah, I like the formation at 3. They are a super powerful formation, but their great hindrance is cost. Besides, who really wants to make the air side of Epic any easier for the Eldar?

In using Phoenix Bombers, my target is wholly based on cost. How much damage can I put out for how much risk? Phoenix Bombers are a 5+ RA so they have excellent survivability. Versus Orks and their mixed formations (or IG for that matter) they are devastating. I would gladly sacrifice a single bomber from the formation if I felt it was going to cripple a formation.

If you are hesitant to chance the flak screen, keep them back as a catch all activation. Have them pick off formations that venture too far off on their own, or prep enemy vanguards with BMs for a follow up ground assault. If neither presents an opportunity, you can always intercept with them (they are Fighter Bombers after all) and better than nothing.

I love Phoenix Bombers. I play them often, although to be honest I usually pick my expensive formations based on what I think looks pretty on that day, so they have to compete with EoVs and Titans.

My points from the other thread...

And you can take a flight of Phoenixes (Phoeni?) and Nightwings if it worries you that much. That's 700 points and easily manageable.

I'm not trying to dismiss your ideas. I am pointing out that if you aren't succeeding with these particular bombers perhaps you need to reevaluate your army list to accommodate them. I really can't see somebody not doing well with the little suckers.

Good points Mosc, but they don't really address the two issues of cost and the impact of the air change (+1 on CAP etc)

On cost, the Eldar need to keep their activation count high (I usually aim at 250-300pts for 10-12 activations in a tournament game). If you take Phoenix bombers at 400pts this means you need to use some other formation to provide AA reducing the ground options etc as well as reducing the remaining pool by 100pts over Nightwings. This effectively forces the use of Falcons now the Fire Prisms have been nerfed (grrr

) as titans are not permitted because of the points restrictions, and anyway titans do not work very well in the AA role. If you take Night wings as well, the bombers have effectively taken up two support formation slots . . .

On the impact of the AA revisions, while the changes have taken the edge off air assaults without preventing them, they have also nerfed bombers to the point that they are almost useless, as it has meant that taking at least one formation of fighters is a no-brainer in all armies. Consider the impact on the humble TBolts against Phoenix Bombers:-
What used to be 4 shots at 5+ with a 20/27 or ~2/3 chance of a kill has improved to 30/27 or a statistical certainty of 1 kill per interception (unless the formation jinks of course which means they will not recover their cost).
OK so this means that the bombers need to operate under an AA 'umbrella' pushing forwards the Falcons into harms way (as the FPs AA has been removed Grrr

), which usually ends in tears!

So in summary all this means that all bombers find it harder to operate and hence harder to recoup their cost, hence the suggestion of reducing the Phoenix Bombers cost to 300pts (in line with the reduced Helltalon costs

)

3x Phoenix Bombers - 400-pts
Void Spinner - 250pts
...
What am I missing, when I look at them and say "that's the choice of a loser" and you say "I can't see someone not doing well with these" ?

Author:	Ginger [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:22 am ]
Post subject:	Phoenix Bombers
What are people's thoughts on the formation? The formation is 3x A/c that can pump out 6x AT4+ shots, 3xAP4+ shots and 3BP, with 5+ armour (but which can 'jink' if needed). So reasonably powerfull in the right circumstances. However, at 400pts this is more expensive than any other aircraft and also more than most Eldar formations, and with the +1 on shooting when on CAP or intercept they are a little more fragile. Also they struggle to find a slot in most lists because there are other cheaper Eldar formations that are as good in particular fields Nightwings are a staple of most Eldar lists because they are such an AA deterent and have good AT and AP capabilities Artillery (Void Spinners) can hit distant targets more cheaply, Fire Prisms in SoV have better AT capabilities So, a radical suggestion:- should we reduce them to 300pts in line with Nightwings? It would provide a better choice, and might make them more used, but would that be overpowered? It is certainly more in line with other bomber costs, and makes a small allowance for the impact of the +1 for CAP and intercept.

Author:	Dobbsy [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoenix Bombers
Do they have to be 3? Why not 2?

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoenix Bombers
3's are holy to the Eldar.

Author:	Dobbsy [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoenix Bombers
And to Tau as well, but I seem to recall that was ignored when it was argued against Barracudas going from 3 down to 2 in that list.

Author:	Moscovian [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoenix Bombers
Nah, I like the formation at 3. They are a super powerful formation, but their great hindrance is cost. Besides, who really wants to make the air side of Epic any easier for the Eldar?

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Phoenix Bombers http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=19899	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Dobbsy [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoenix Bombers
They're actually all very good points Mosc. The Phoenix bomber has RA5+.... that's a pretty damned good air squadron - I wish my aircraft had RA.

Author:	Angel_of_Caliban [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoenix Bombers
Dobbsy wrote: Do they have to be 3? Why not 2? That was my first thought too.... I mean 2 for 200 be nice. Gives them a 33 point drop each. Or maybe 2 for 250, 125 each. Making it only 8 point drop each. Evil and Chaos wrote: 3's are holy to the Eldar. I thought we were trying to match pack sizes nowadays?? FW 2 yet GW 3. But really who buy's GW ones.... Moscovian wrote: Nah, I like the formation at 3. They are a super powerful formation, but their great hindrance is cost. Besides, who really wants to make the air side of Epic any easier for the Eldar? Being a Eldar player....I would like to make the Air Side easier!

Author:	Moscovian [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoenix Bombers
My points from the other thread... Quote: In using Phoenix Bombers, my target is wholly based on cost. How much damage can I put out for how much risk? Phoenix Bombers are a 5+ RA so they have excellent survivability. Versus Orks and their mixed formations (or IG for that matter) they are devastating. I would gladly sacrifice a single bomber from the formation if I felt it was going to cripple a formation. If you are hesitant to chance the flak screen, keep them back as a catch all activation. Have them pick off formations that venture too far off on their own, or prep enemy vanguards with BMs for a follow up ground assault. If neither presents an opportunity, you can always intercept with them (they are Fighter Bombers after all) and better than nothing. I love Phoenix Bombers. I play them often, although to be honest I usually pick my expensive formations based on what I think looks pretty on that day, so they have to compete with EoVs and Titans.

Author:	Ginger [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoenix Bombers
Good points Mosc, but they don't really address the two issues of cost and the impact of the air change (+1 on CAP etc) On cost, the Eldar need to keep their activation count high (I usually aim at 250-300pts for 10-12 activations in a tournament game). If you take Phoenix bombers at 400pts this means you need to use some other formation to provide AA reducing the ground options etc as well as reducing the remaining pool by 100pts over Nightwings. This effectively forces the use of Falcons now the Fire Prisms have been nerfed (grrr ) as titans are not permitted because of the points restrictions, and anyway titans do not work very well in the AA role. If you take Night wings as well, the bombers have effectively taken up two support formation slots . . . On the impact of the AA revisions, while the changes have taken the edge off air assaults without preventing them, they have also nerfed bombers to the point that they are almost useless, as it has meant that taking at least one formation of fighters is a no-brainer in all armies. Consider the impact on the humble TBolts against Phoenix Bombers:- What used to be 4 shots at 5+ with a 20/27 or ~2/3 chance of a kill has improved to 30/27 or a statistical certainty of 1 kill per interception (unless the formation jinks of course which means they will not recover their cost). OK so this means that the bombers need to operate under an AA 'umbrella' pushing forwards the Falcons into harms way (as the FPs AA has been removed Grrr ), which usually ends in tears! So in summary all this means that all bombers find it harder to operate and hence harder to recoup their cost, hence the suggestion of reducing the Phoenix Bombers cost to 300pts (in line with the reduced Helltalon costs )

Author:	Moscovian [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoenix Bombers
If you reduce their costs they will be monstrous and overpowering. You can easily keep your 10-12 activations and still bring Bombers. I have done so many times. You just don't bring titans! I know, it is a tough decision, but I played a tournament list with no titans at the NEAT tourney and the Eldar beat every army I brought them against. No titans. War Walkers. No Warp Spyders. How is it possible!?! Could have easily brought the Phoenix Bombers but I just didn't. Personal preference on that day I suppose. And you can take a flight of Phoenixes (Phoeni?) and Nightwings if it worries you that much. That's 700 points and easily manageable. I've played A LOT with the Eldar and I've done that army too. I'm not trying to dismiss your ideas. I am pointing out that if you aren't succeeding with these particular bombers perhaps you need to reevaluate your army list to accommodate them. I really can't see somebody not doing well with the little suckers.

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoenix Bombers
Quote: And you can take a flight of Phoenixes (Phoeni?) and Nightwings if it worries you that much. That's 700 points and easily manageable. 700pts of aircraft in 2 formations in a tournament? That can't contest or claim objectives?? Quote: I'm not trying to dismiss your ideas. I am pointing out that if you aren't succeeding with these particular bombers perhaps you need to reevaluate your army list to accommodate them. I really can't see somebody not doing well with the little suckers. 3x Phoenix Bombers - 400-pts Void Spinner - 250pts Each put out 3BP, only the Void Spinner is almost half the price, can claim objectives, and can sustain fire. A few extra AP and AT shots* really doesn't seem worth what you lose for those extra 150pts (A whole Guardian warhost, or a Ranger formation, etc), not to mention that those 400pts are coming out of your Titans allowance. What am I missing, when I look at them and say "that's the choice of a loser" and you say "I can't see someone not doing well with these" ? *Considering the Void Spinner's going to be Sustaining, its +1 to hit should pretty much cancel out the extra AP/AT shots from the bombers.

Author:	Ginger [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoenix Bombers
I never take titans in Eldar or Marines - call me a purist or sucker if you prefer - And I agree that you can fit the formation into a 3K list. BUT taking the formation forces other choices to some extent. While it is definitely possible I am not sure it is so competitive, not least because using Phoenix Bombers tends to reduce the number of activations. And As E&C says, having 2 formations (~22% of your forces) unable to contest objectives is not really viable at 3K in a competition

Author:	Dobbsy [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoenix Bombers
Ginger wrote: Good points Mosc, but they don't really address the two issues of cost and the impact of the air change (+1 on CAP etc) On cost, the Eldar need to keep their activation count high (I usually aim at 250-300pts for 10-12 activations in a tournament game). If you take Phoenix bombers at 400pts this means you need to use some other formation to provide AA reducing the ground options etc as well as reducing the remaining pool by 100pts over Nightwings. This effectively forces the use of Falcons now the Fire Prisms have been nerfed (grrr ) as titans are not permitted because of the points restrictions, and anyway titans do not work very well in the AA role. If you take Night wings as well, the bombers have effectively taken up two support formation slots . . . On the impact of the AA revisions, while the changes have taken the edge off air assaults without preventing them, they have also nerfed bombers to the point that they are almost useless, as it has meant that taking at least one formation of fighters is a no-brainer in all armies. Consider the impact on the humble TBolts against Phoenix Bombers:- What used to be 4 shots at 5+ with a 20/27 or ~2/3 chance of a kill has improved to 30/27 or a statistical certainty of 1 kill per interception (unless the formation jinks of course which means they will not recover their cost). OK so this means that the bombers need to operate under an AA 'umbrella' pushing forwards the Falcons into harms way (as the FPs AA has been removed Grrr ), which usually ends in tears! So in summary all this means that all bombers find it harder to operate and hence harder to recoup their cost, hence the suggestion of reducing the Phoenix Bombers cost to 300pts (in line with the reduced Helltalon costs ) WOW! I think I used a very similar argument in the Tau air thread regarding AX1-0 and Barracudas... and that was overridden. So, if it's good for the Tau it's good for the Eldar. You cannot possibly say the Eldar need an air boost. If someone thinks the Phoenix are sucky, I'm sure there are as many people like Mosc who don't. Leave them as is.

Author:	nealhunt [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Phoenix Bombers
Evil and Chaos wrote: 3x Phoenix Bombers - 400-pts Void Spinner - 250pts ... What am I missing, when I look at them and say "that's the choice of a loser" and you say "I can't see someone not doing well with these" ? Most importantly, your firepower comparison is off. The sustain fire bonus will not come close to making up for the direct fire shots on the bombers. The bombers are throwing out 9 shots at 4+ each, or 27 pips. Sustain fire is +1 to-hit pip per target under the barrage. Obviously, that's not going to be in the same ballpark, regardless of conditions. If you figure something like a mounted infantry unit, using vehicles for cover, but spreading out to avoid barrages, that's maybe 6 targets under a template hitting at 4+ (AV or infantry/cover) on sustained fire, that's only 3 hits. The Phoenixes would hit the same 6 targets at 5+ for the barrage, plus 6 AT4+ and 3 AP5+ (infantry/cover), that's 6 hits on average - double. The only reasonable comparison that is any better for the Voidspinner than that is a pure AV-in-the-open target, in which case the difference is only 3-5. Big difference in favor of the bombers. There are some other minor effects as well. The first one that pops to mind is that staying loaded in transports can provide effective barrage defense. When the barrage is accompanied by high quality AT fire that specifically targets the transports, that goes away. That makes the Phoenixes a little better at pressuring forces to spread out and slow down. Another is that I'd say, overall, the bombers are more durable as an activation because for an opponent that can bring something to bear, a Void Spinner is pretty fragile. That's just a gut feeling, though. It would be nearly impossible to theory-hammer and it would take a ridiculous number of batreps to really see if that's true. I don't necessarily think those factors make up for the full price difference, but they count for something.

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