Tactical Command
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Curious questions
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=19462		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Lsrwolf [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:01 am ]
Post subject:  Curious questions
My apologies if these questions have been answered somewhere already. I'm still reading backwards in the forums.

1) Because Wraithlords only have powerfists, how come only their 2nd attk is MW? These bad boys have the highest toughness in 40K but their saves are less than Ogryns?

2) What happened to the Swooping Hawk's grenade launchers? Surely this would be an easy addition (even if it was not as devastating as those #*&%*^# drop pod attks.

3) Who uses Dire Avengers in Base to base? With 2x FF shots, why in the world does their Exarch have a CC wpn?

4) In 40k there is no difference in saves and toughness between shining spears and jetbikes. Why were the jetbikes saves increased to 5+?

5) In 40k the Laser Lance has a Str6 AP4 6" range. Why no ranged attk in the Epic version and a WORSE FF value than vanilla jetbikes?
Author:  zombocom [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious questions
Lsrwolf wrote:
1) Because Wraithlords only have powerfists, how come only their 2nd attk is MW? These bad boys have the highest toughness in 40K but their saves are less than Ogryns?


The powerfists thing is a standard epic convention, see marine dreadnaughts, terminators etc for other examples. It represents them attacking in other ways, such as kicking etc. It's also as much a balance thing as anything else.

Wraithlords have Reinforced Armour, so their 4+ save is rerollable, so it's a better save than Ogryns single 3+ save (75% chance of saving vs 66%).

Lsrwolf wrote:
2) What happened to the Swooping Hawk's grenade launchers? Surely this would be an easy addition (even if it was not as devastating as those #*&%*^# drop pod attks.


It's too small scale an effect to represent at this scale, consider it part of their FF stat.

Lsrwolf wrote:
3) Who uses Dire Avengers in Base to base? With 2x FF shots, why in the world does their Exarch have a CC wpn?


I believe it's a fluff thing to represent their Direswords.

Lsrwolf wrote:
4) In 40k there is no difference in saves and toughness between shining spears and jetbikes. Why were the jetbikes saves increased to 5+?


Not sure about the netEA list, but the Swordwind list has them both with a 4+ save?

Lsrwolf wrote:
5) In 40k the Laser Lance has a Str6 AP4 6" range. Why no ranged attk in the Epic version and a WORSE FF value than vanilla jetbikes?


A weapon with a 6" range in 40k is usually considered part of the CC stat in epic.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious questions
1) Because that's how Dreadnought CCWs work in Epic. If you want, the first attack can be visuallized as the flamer attack, or the Wraithlord kicking the opponent, etc. The save is reinforced, so it's actually better.

2) Dunno.

3) No one, mostly, but the option is nice. The decision was made mostly due to the (at the time) iconic weapon of the DA Exarch - the Dire Sword. The DA Exarch model is also armed with a Dire Sword.

4) Don't know. Swordwind has both at 4+, though the NetEA Draft has Jetbikes at 5+. Chroma?

5) Remember Engage actions encompass an entire 40k game. CC includes hand to hand as well as short ranged attacks such as pistols and the Laser Lance, thus it adds to the CC attacks. FF attacks are more in the direction of ranged small arms and heavy weapon fire, and it's difficult to fire your Shuriken Catapults when you're trying to carry a lance in one hand.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious questions
Quote:
4) Don't know. Swordwind has both at 4+, though the NetEA Draft has Jetbikes at 5+. Chroma?

4+ was overpowered, so 5+ was adopted.
This also had the side-effect of showcasing that armour saves in Epic are not just pure armour, but also represent training and ability to avoid incoming fire, etc, so the more skilled Shining Spears kept their 4+ save.
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious questions
I think most of those have been answered pretty well, but to add a few minor points...

3) Not only is the special weapon for DA exarchs the Diresword, but their special exarch powers are more geared towards close combat than shooting. CC is, obviously, not optimal in that it doesn't fit the role of the unit in Epic, but it is in keeping with the background.

5) CC stat in Epic is not just purely hand-to-hand. It includes fire exchanged while closing range, so as E&C noted, that means things like flamers and assault weapons which are fired before closing in 40K.
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious questions
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
4) Don't know. Swordwind has both at 4+, though the NetEA Draft has Jetbikes at 5+. Chroma?

4+ was overpowered, so 5+ was adopted.
This also had the side-effect of showcasing that armour saves in Epic are not just pure armour, but also represent training and ability to avoid incoming fire, etc, so the more skilled Shining Spears kept their 4+ save.

I disagreed with Sotec when he first suggested this, then again when the proposals were resurected by Chroma over a year ago. I was totally ignored on both occasions.

If Jetbikes are so 'overpowered', why are they not present in huge numbers in every Eldar list in the UK tournament scene? If you check the lists, apart from my Britcon list where I was trying to prove a point, there is no other list with more than two jetbike formation, and many have none!

As to the comparative costs, at ~33pts per bike and ~37 points per SS, the 4pts difference for Lance seems reasonable - and all other factors are effectively similar (but CC and FF are swapped obviously).

So I have yet to see any reason why this change is being foisted on the community (indeed the same goes for a number of the other changes being proposed) :(
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious questions
Quote:
If Jetbikes are so 'overpowered', why are they not present in huge numbers in every Eldar list in the UK tournament scene? If you check the lists, apart from my Britcon list where I was trying to prove a point

To be fair, you slaughtered me 5-0 testing that list... the only reason you didn't win Britcon is probably that you ran out of time a lot! :-)
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious questions
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
If Jetbikes are so 'overpowered', why are they not present in huge numbers in every Eldar list in the UK tournament scene? If you check the lists, apart from my Britcon list where I was trying to prove a point

To be fair, you slaughtered me 5-0 testing that list... the only reason you didn't win Britcon is probably that you ran out of time a lot! :-)

Actually I lost three games, and 'drew' the other three due to time constraints (though to be fair I was probably ahead in them). So at best a 50% record, and probably less than that. Hardly overpowered!
Author:  GlynG [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious questions
Lsrwolf wrote:
Wraithlords...These bad boys have the highest toughness in 40K but their saves are less than Ogryns?

I think the others have covered your other questions already, but just wanted to add it's a stand of 5 Ogryns that has the 3+ while there's only a single Wraithlord (who's reinforced armour means it saves better anyway).
Author:  Mephiston [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious questions
In isolation of a couple of troupes the save is fine, if a little too good, in the wider scope of the Siam Han army it becomes more problematic.

So a universal change to 5+ save was the selected method to balance out bikes in both lists.

And I would disagree that your bike horde Britcon list was ahead of my chaos force, considering you had to move stuff to stop me winning!
Author:  Ginger [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious questions
Mephiston wrote:
In isolation of a couple of troupes the save is fine, if a little too good, in the wider scope of the Siam Han army it becomes more problematic.

So a universal change to 5+ save was the selected method to balance out bikes in both lists.

And I would disagree that your bike horde Britcon list was ahead of my chaos force, considering you had to move stuff to stop me winning!

So my Britcon army (8x jetbike formations out of 16x ground formations and 1x air) had a record that was was more like 4 losses out of 6 games - I re-iterrate that is hardly overpowered!

As for the Saim Han army, could the problem be more due to the size or composition of the formations?
Author:  Mephiston [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious questions
I think the lack of bikes for eldar in UK tournaments is explained by the fact that most players using the rolling assault army now use a warlock titan as the focus of the list. This means that once you've got you wave serpent assault hosts you don't have the points for bikes as you still need enough AA and arty to make the whole thing work.

I actually think the 5+ save is warranted for the jetbikes, and this change alone wouldn't stop me from using them in lists.
Author:  Lsrwolf [ Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious questions
So please pardon my newness to the board, but is the 5+ save on all jetbikes (and other such stat changes) "Neal Hunt Approved" or is it netEA or player recommendation type changes?

Thx
Author:  Ginger [ Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious questions
The proposed change only applies to the standard jetbike, not to the Vypers or Shining Spear Aspects.

Changing the jetbike save from 4+ to 5+ was proposed by the previous Eldar champ some 2-3 years ago along with a number of other changes that were all designed to reduce the power of the Eldar lists. Whilst other changes were adopted then (dropping Spirit Stones, changes to the Pulse rule etc), this particular change was not.
Author:  Mephiston [ Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Curious questions
Lsrwolf wrote:
So please pardon my newness to the board, but is the 5+ save on all jetbikes (and other such stat changes) "Neal Hunt Approved" or is it netEA or player recommendation type changes?

Thx


It's a change in the current netEA lists. As ginger says many of these changes were sent to Jervis and GW for the final 'official' review but weren't adopted at that time.

Chroma is the Eldar champion for netEA so drop him a pm if you want more info.
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