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[Units] Falcons as Transports
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=17691		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Chroma [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Falcons as Transports
So, was going through the NetEA Eldar DRAFT document correcting typos and I started to think about how rarely Falcons are taken as a transport option.

While they certainly add firepower to a formation, is the +65 points too much?  You'll, generally, be taking them in pairs, so that's +130 points to the formation, while single Wave Serpent transports the same number of units for +50 points.

I have made use of Falcons in smaller Aspect Troupes, such as four Dark Reapers and four Falcons, but I've rarely used them elsewhere.

So, what are other people's thoughts?  Would +50 each be reasonable?  Overpowering?  An unneccessary change?

Have at me!
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Falcons as Transports
Quote: (Chroma @ Jan. 15 2010, 15:21 )

While they certainly add firepower to a formation, is the +65 points too much?

Yes.  I've made the case ad nauseum, since prior to publication that the point cost is whacked.

50 points max.
Author:  Chroma [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Falcons as Transports
Quote: (nealhunt @ Jan. 15 2010, 15:31 )

Yes.  I've made the case ad nauseum, since prior to publication that the point cost is whacked.

50 points max.

Well, that's two NetERC members saying "Change it!", think we can make it a three-fer?  *laugh*

And, what do *non*-Eldar players thing? :whistle:
Author:  Moscovian [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Falcons as Transports
I always thought the 65 points was just okay.  I certainly wouldn't mind them being 50 points but I wonder if the Eldar really need the change.  I wonder if anyone has ever tried taking them at 50 points each and then tried breaking them.
Author:  semajnollissor [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Falcons as Transports
Well, at 50pt/falcon, an aspect warhost plus 8 falcons would still be 700pts before exarch/autarch upgrade. That's still more than most people will be comfortable spending on one formation in a 3000pt game. The biggest difference here would be the ability to not waste the leftover points just to replace one wave serpent with 2 falcons (since falcons are the only non-25pt multiple in the list).

I haven't seen anyone discuss how often falcons are taken for the smaller aspect troupes in the other craftworld list, but the only area of abuse that I can predict might be with the 4-unit aspect troupe in the ulthwe list. But even with that one, the 4 falcons will be one of the lesser used options (vampires and wraithgates being more likely modes of transport).

If falcons go to 50pt I certainly won't complain, but I might be biased. In fact, doing so will finally put to bed the cognitive dissonance that people suffer over the difference in cost between falcons as transport upgrades and falcons in tank formations.

I will also add that Neal has more than enough experience fighting against very good Eldar players (I'm not one of them), and on this topic I certainly would defer to his opinion.
Author:  GlynG [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Falcons as Transports
I've always thought 65 points to be overpriced and never considered fielding transporting falcons, they're also (virtually) never taken from the Eldar players I've spoken to. The reinforced armour of wave serpents is just better for transporting troops survival and taking assault hits. Doubt I'd use them much for transports even at 50, but I'd at least consider it occasionally. +1 for a change to 50pts (maybe even slightly less!)
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Falcons as Transports
Not that I've played a ton of games against Eldar, but I don't remember seeing Falcons being used at all. Decreasing the points might be helpful.
Author:  GlynG [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Falcons as Transports
Falcons do get used a good amount from what I've seen; I used a couple of formations of them at Britcon and I think I've seen someone use 4 formations at 3k. Just not as add-ons for transporting.

If there should prove variance as to the usefulness of them in small formations of 4 and large formations of 8 the points could always be further adjusted e.g. 50pts for Ulthwe, 40 points for Biel-tann say (could be too cheap but might be ok).
Author:  Chroma [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Falcons as Transports
Quote: (Moscovian @ Jan. 15 2010, 16:35 )

I wonder if anyone has ever tried taking them at 50 points each and then tried breaking them.

Well, people have been testing them at 65 points each for years with some telling results:  no one take 'em!  *laugh*

For the smaller Aspect Troupes, the Eldar player will be saving 60 points over four Falcons... doesn't seem game-breaking to me.

One might see 2-4 in an Warhost now, as opposed to none at all currently.  There are still possible drawbacks that make it a "tough choice" between Wave Serpents and Falcons.

Alaitoc Ranger Warhosts have the option to take four Falcons for +200 points and it hasn't been overpowering there.
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Falcons as Transports
They'd still be a bad choice for assault aspects or guardians.  What you'd most likely see for transport falcons...

4 Reapers, 1 Wave Serpent, 2 Falcons
325 points

or

6 Reapers, 1 or 2 Wave Serpents, 2 or 4 Falcons
425/475 points

I seriously doubt you'd see them in BT because you'd still be around 600 points, even with multiple Wave Serpents.
Author:  Blish [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Falcons as Transports
Quote: (Chroma @ Jan. 15 2010, 15:21 )

So, was going through the NetEA Eldar DRAFT document correcting typos and I started to think about how rarely Falcons are taken as a transport option.

While they certainly add firepower to a formation, is the +65 points too much?  You'll, generally, be taking them in pairs, so that's +130 points to the formation, while single Wave Serpent transports the same number of units for +50 points.

I have made use of Falcons in smaller Aspect Troupes, such as four Dark Reapers and four Falcons, but I've rarely used them elsewhere.

So, what are other people's thoughts?  Would +50 each be reasonable?  Overpowering?  An unneccessary change?

Have at me!

I have never been able to take them in my list for that price. I find they are just too brittle for the cost. As 50pts I would think about it.

:ooooo:
Author:  Irisado [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Falcons as Transports
Falcons are too expensive as a transport option, I agree.

Whether a change would make me use them in that capacity or not, I'm not sure, as I like the transport capacity of the Wave Serpent, but it may encourage me to mix them in with Wave Serpents in certain formations if they were cheaper.
Author:  Flogus [ Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:28 am ]
Post subject:  [Units] Falcons as Transports
As tank, they cost 50pts.
As transport, they still bring the same firepower, but they also bring an obsious transport capacity.
So they should pay for that additionnal capacity ?
I say no ! The poor armor of those taxis is a good trade for the transport ability.

50pts is fine for Falcon-taxis.
Author:  Flogus [ Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:34 am ]
Post subject:  [Units] Falcons as Transports
Quote: (Chroma @ Jan. 15 2010, 22:27 )

Alaitoc Ranger Warhosts have the option to take four Falcons for +200 points and it hasn't been overpowering there.

The Alaitoc option for 4 Falcons for +200pts is in remplacement of the free option for +4 Rangers units or +3 Warwalkers.
The 4 Rangers + 4 Falcons formation cost 400pts. 100pts for Rangers units, so 300pts for the Falcons.
Author:  Chroma [ Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:40 am ]
Post subject:  [Units] Falcons as Transports
Quote: (Flogus @ Jan. 16 2010, 01:34 )

The Alaitoc option for 4 Falcons for +200pts is in remplacement of the free option for +4 Rangers units or +3 Warwalkers.
The 4 Rangers + 4 Falcons formation cost 400pts. 100pts for Rangers units, so 300pts for the Falcons.

Yeah, I realized that after I thought about it again... *laugh*
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