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Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=17619		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Ratmamahatma [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
Hi
In 40k I play Storm Guardians with two flamers and Wave Serpents with EMLs and want to represent this properly in Epic. If I understand Epic conventions it could be done like this:
Storm Guardians: Close Combat 5+, Firefight 6+, Weapons: Flamers 15cm AP4+ Ignore cover. There will be no option for platforms but otherwise no point change.
For Serpents with twinlinked EML there is change in weapon to 45cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+ for 65 points.

Do you think it is workable this way or do you see some problems with it?
Thanks
Author:  lord_bruno [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
I would say CC6+ FF5+, and unless a heavy flamer, infantry flamethrowers are AP5+ IC.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
CC6+ on a CC specialist? I have to agree with Ratman, though the AA on an IFV will raise eyebrows. 4 AA5+ matches a SoV Troupe in effectiveness. Consider AP4+/AT5+. Fluffwise the Eldar Missile Launchers currently carried on EoVs and Titans are much larger and more capable systems, whereas the 40K eldar missile launcher simply has an AP and an AT missile choice.
Author:  Ratmamahatma [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
Quote: (lord_bruno @ Jan. 07 2010, 14:56 )

I would say CC6+ FF5+, and unless a heavy flamer, infantry flamethrowers are AP5+ IC.

AP5+ IC sounds good but Storm Guardians have close combat weapons so Im not sure how to understand the CC6+ FF5+. Do you mean that they are still bad in CC (which is fair statement  :) ) but these flamers do help in FF? If so, I like it this way.
Author:  semajnollissor [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
I don't think standard flamers like those that the eldar guardians carry around warrant that powerful of a weapon profile. Based on how other, similarly sized weapons are handled (like the shuriken catapults or the boltguns of the SMs), they'd more likely be represented by the FF value of the unit. And even then, the average works out so that there's only one flamer per stand, so the effect on the FF value would be minimal.

I'd suggest using the standard guardian profile. If you really don't want to do that, simply increase the CC value of the standard guardian unit by 1 and decrease the FF value by the same amount. Doing that would at least let you distinguish between the FF-specializing guardian defenders and the slightly more CC-oriented storm guardians.  

As for the TL EMLs, by giving the serpents an AA shot, you have increased their worth considerably. You have given them a much greater range against ground targets (more than doubling the area of the board that they can attack), given them the ability to attack both infantry and tanks, and they have the best armor of the eldar tanks. I think the TL EML wave serpents you describe would be worth at least 85 points.

There is also the problem that giving the standard transport an AA shot goes against an unwritten rule of the game, which is that AA guns are really meant to be 'special' and only found on dedicated AA units. I realize there are exceptions to that, but I believe the aerospace rules might break down if there was that much AA on the table.
Author:  Ratmamahatma [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
Quote: (Spectrar Ghost @ Jan. 07 2010, 15:03 )

CC6+ on a CC specialist? I have to agree with Ratman, though the AA on an IFV will raise eyebrows. 4 AA5+ matches a SoV Troupe in effectiveness. Consider AP4+/AT5+. Fluffwise the Eldar Missile Launchers currently carried on EoVs and Titans are much larger and more capable systems, whereas the 40K eldar missile launcher simply has an AP and an AT missile choice.

Right, AP4+/AT5+ sounds sensible.
So what about the Stormies? AP5+ and CC5+ FF6+ or CC6+ FF5+? I dont know much about other armies and game conventions to decide properly myself.
Thnx
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
CC5+/FF5+ is good. Reduction in shots from the Catapults to the Pistols, and additional attacks from the extra CCW.

*edit*
One thing to remember is that these stats make a good FF, poor CC unit into a unit that is marginal at both. You are warned!
*edit*

SG
Author:  Ratmamahatma [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
to semajnollissor:
Now I understand better. I will use the normal guardians then. Thanks.
What is your opinion on the serpent without AA statistic?
Author:  Ratmamahatma [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
Quote: (Spectrar Ghost @ Jan. 07 2010, 15:23 )

CC5+/FF5+ is good. Reduction in shots from the Catapults to the Pistols, and additional attacks from the extra CCW.

SG

This sounds nice but I dont think that extra CCW grands you extra attack. But if it is posible, than it should be CC6+ FF5+ and extra attack I guess.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
Sorry, I was unclear there. The extra CCW attack would be the justification for the improved CC value.

SG
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
Quote: (semajnollissor @ Jan. 07 2010, 15:11 )

I'd suggest using the standard guardian profile. If you really don't want to do that, simply increase the CC value of the standard guardian unit by 1 and decrease the FF value by the same amount. Doing that would at least let you distinguish between the FF-specializing guardian defenders and the slightly more CC-oriented storm guardians.

I'd suggest going this route as well for Storm Guardians.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
Chroma has spoken! :)

Seriously, though, as I edited in, possibly too late, above, a FF4/CC6 unit is significantly more valuable than a CC5/FF5 unit when used correctly. doing the 5/5 thing as a one-off formation in a friendly game would be fine with me personally, but on an army-wide basis, it would be a significant downgrade. After all, you can't use both, and if you can't choose which you use, you've probably already lost.

SG
Author:  Ratmamahatma [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
I understand and agree. I will use normal Guardian profile as I see the killing power of Storm Guardians more in the flamers (and Warlock Destructor.. but he is bussy in the Council this time) than in real close combat. So CC6+ FF4+ sounds good in the end. In fact they are working for my fluff best if I can concider them to be mixed (catapults and CCW with some special W - they are suposed to be kind a Corsairs ;) ).
Author:  semajnollissor [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
Well, regarding the suggested 45cm AP4+/AT5+ wave serpent, I would guess that a 60pts price tag would be about right. It certainly doesn't seem better than a Falcon, which is 65pts.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Storm Guardians and EML Serpent
I'm pretty much on board with everything Semaj has stated.
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