Tactical Command
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[Units] Warp Spiders discussion
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=17404		 Page 1 of 7
Author:  Chroma [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:48 am ]
Post subject:  [Units] Warp Spiders discussion
To keep the red herrings out of the Banshee discussion, here's a thread for Warp Spiders.
Author:  Blish [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:49 am ]
Post subject:  [Units] Warp Spiders discussion
I don't see a issue with they way they are at the moment.

:blues:
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:06 am ]
Post subject:  [Units] Warp Spiders discussion
Quote: (Blish @ Dec. 13 2009, 13:49 )

I don't see a issue with they way they are at the moment.

:blues:

Other than the fact that Feral Orkls do not get Teleport, correct Blish?   :laugh:
Author:  Irisado [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Warp Spiders discussion
Just out of curiosity, what was the thinking behind giving Warp Spiders the First Strike rule?  I've never really understood why they have that, since they have generally been a pretty mediocre to poor assault unit in 40K, and given their good FF value, I'm a bit perplexed as to why this is needed.

I'm not saying it should be changed, I'm just seeking a bit of information about why this rule was applied to them, so that I can think about the case for altering their statline (should there be a demand for this) to see whether or not I agree with any suggestions which are put forward.
Author:  GlynG [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Warp Spiders discussion
It's because of their short range teleporting, they are able to appear out of nowhere next to the enemy and hit them with shots before they have time to react. Seems the best way to represent it to me.

They are a good choice at the moment, possibly a little too good but I've not played them enough to comment with that much experience.

IF the consensus is that they do need to be toned down it should only be a small reduction, possibly removing First Strike from their unit notes and apply it only to their FF attack as it makes more sense for them to have it there if both is too powerful. This way they are still just as good used well in their niche but it also provides the enemy with a good way to counter them - charge and close combat them, whereas at the moment they would suffer a lot of first strike close combat deaths before they even got to fight.
Author:  Chroma [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Warp Spiders discussion
Quote: (GlynG @ Dec. 13 2009, 13:41 )

It's because of their short range teleporting, they are able to appear out of nowhere next to the enemy and hit them with shots before they have time to react. Seems the best way to represent it to me.

This is precisely what the first strike represents; it's an extrapolation of what having such an ability in "real life" might allow a unit to do in a broader tactical sense.

Moving the ability directly to the weapon is actually a great idea.
Author:  Flogus [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Warp Spiders discussion
Quote: (Chroma @ Dec. 13 2009, 15:01 )

Moving the ability directly to the weapon is actually a great idea.

Definitively a great idea !
Author:  Simulated Knave [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Warp Spiders discussion
Indeed!
Author:  Carrington [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Warp Spiders discussion
Quote: (Chroma @ Dec. 13 2009, 14:01 )

Quote: (GlynG @ Dec. 13 2009, 13:41 )

It's because of their short range teleporting, they are able to appear out of nowhere next to the enemy and hit them with shots before they have time to react. Seems the best way to represent it to me.

This is precisely what the first strike represents; it's an extrapolation of what having such an ability in "real life" might allow a unit to do in a broader tactical sense.

Moving the ability directly to the weapon is actually a great idea.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Especially with firefight, the first strike ability has to represent the fact that the Warp Spiders have been able to 'get the jump' on their targets.  But if they're being attacked in CC, they've been, presumably, 'jumped' themselves.

It does suggest an interesting aspect warrior formation that is mixed HBs and WS.
Author:  Irisado [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Warp Spiders discussion
Quote: (GlynG @ Dec. 13 2009, 13:41 )

It's because of their short range teleporting, they are able to appear out of nowhere next to the enemy and hit them with shots before they have time to react. Seems the best way to represent it to me.

They are a good choice at the moment, possibly a little too good but I've not played them enough to comment with that much experience.

IF the consensus is that they do need to be toned down it should only be a small reduction, possibly removing First Strike from their unit notes and apply it only to their FF attack as it makes more sense for them to have it there if both is too powerful. This way they are still just as good used well in their niche but it also provides the enemy with a good way to counter them - charge and close combat them, whereas at the moment they would suffer a lot of first strike close combat deaths before they even got to fight.

Thanks for that explanation, it does make sense, but I think your point about transferring the ability to the FF, so that they do not receive it in b/c is one I would definitely agree with if I change were to be made, as Warp Spiders are deadly at short range, but not in close combat, so such an alteration would reflect their abilities very well in my opinion.
Author:  stompzilla [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Warp Spiders discussion
Wouldn't that mean that the exarchs wouldn't get FS though?  Aren't warp spiders 6+ in CC anyhow?
Author:  GlynG [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Warp Spiders discussion
No on both counts - the Exarch for the Warp Spiders gives you a ranged attack, not a close combat one. Warp Spiders are FF4+ and CC5+ too.
Author:  AxelFendersson [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Warp Spiders discussion
Quote: (GlynG @ Dec. 13 2009, 18:36 )

No on both counts - the Exarch for the Warp Spiders gives you a ranged attack, not a close combat one.

Yes, but if the first strike ability applies to the WS's Death Spinner, then it doesn't apply to any other weapons, like the Exarch Ranged Weapon. So just as the extra attack on the Fire Dragon Exarch isn't a macro weapon, neither would it have first strike for the Warp Spiders.
Author:  GlynG [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Warp Spiders discussion
Ah, bugger. Why not make a small adjustment to the Exarch entry to fix that then - one giving a Fire Dragon Exarch's attack MW and a Warp Spider's one First Strike. Clearly both should have those abilities.
Author:  semajnollissor [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Warp Spiders discussion
I would point out that moving FS to the (small arms) weapon is almost a non-change.

It would really only effect the Exarch, because very few people put their warp spiders in CC, and at CC5+, first strike doesn't have the same punch as it does with FF4+.

Now, if warp spiders are overpowered because of the exarchs they can take, then this is a good change, but otherwise, I don't think it will effect much.
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