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[Units] Banshees and Overwatch
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=15630		 Page 1 of 17
Author:  frogbear [ Wed May 20, 2009 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
From reading these lists, there appears to be a perception that banshees are overpriced for their stats.

If this is true, what do people think of the following as a rule:

When an Eldar unit with Banshees charges an enemy unit, that enemy unit may not fire Overwatch due to the stunning attack of the banshee mask.

Yes, I know they get First Strike.

I am merely opening up a thought as to giving something back IF they are overpriced. This would depend on how overpriced they were as the above effect would be very limited in it's use - hence, a consideration where the points overcharged is minimal.

Also it introduces a 'gap' in the rules as a counter to overwatch, albeit quite minimal.

Thoughts anyone?
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed May 20, 2009 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
I can hear the cries of 'not another special rule for eldar' already  :laugh:

Give it a go is the best advice. I think the consensus feeling is to make them CC2+, but I can't be 100% sure as the discussion was a while ago now.
Author:  Chroma [ Wed May 20, 2009 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
I'd rather not add another special rule to the Eldar list... especially just for one unit.

The Banshess *are* underpowered... even a CC stat boost 40 2+ isn't enough to make them attractive, as FF is still better than CC, and any Banshees that do happen to get into base contact and kill their targets are still succeptible to surviving enemy firefight attacks and will probably die.

I don't use Banshees... ever.  I'd think about giving them infiltrator or something, but I *still* don't think I'd take them.   :sus:

Other thoughts?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed May 20, 2009 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
Jervis once told me that the Eldar have pushed the boundaries of how many Special Rules an Epic army should have, so no more please. :)

I think that CC2+ is a must, to at least help them a bit.
Author:  frogbear [ Wed May 20, 2009 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
How overpriced are they?

What are we talking in points?

Not considering taking them, ever, is a real concern. Is this the general concensus?

If something is in a list, it needs to fill a role otherwise it has no place being there. Banshees need a role as they are an integral part of the Fluff for the Eldar - and they look good!
Author:  Chroma [ Wed May 20, 2009 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
Quote: (frogbear @ 20 May 2009, 14:27 )

How overpriced are they?

What are we talking in points?

There are too many variables at play in an Aspect Warrior Warhost to determine an actual "point difference"... their stats are decent, and priced fairly appropriately, especially with a CC2+... it's just that there's no real niche for them that isn't covered by something else... and those "something elses" can do *other* stuff as well!

Not considering taking them, ever, is a real concern. Is this the general concensus?
I can't recall the last time I saw "free choice" Banshees in an Eldar army list... they make appearances for "I like the models" or "See, I took Banshees!" choices, but I don't think they've ever appeared in a competitive list.  The other Aspects just give better options, alone or mixed.

If something is in a list, it needs to fill a role otherwise it has no place being there. Banshees need a role as they are an integral part of the Fluff for the Eldar - and they look good!
Agreed, but the role they have in 40k (shredding armoured infantry) is to "fine" a specialization to be represented faithfully in EPIC: giving them "power weapons", which is a MW attack, makes them *WAY* too good at killing tanks and steps on other toes yet again.

I'll try to find the last poll I did about it and link it here.
Author:  Chroma [ Wed May 20, 2009 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
Here's the poll and discussion about Banshee stat changes from over a year ago: Banshee Poll

Some of the formating is off because it's from a different version of the boards.
Author:  Moscovian [ Wed May 20, 2009 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
FYI  The Biel-tan player at the Baltimore Big Battle took a full 8 stands of Banshees and launched them against a full formation of Dark Eldar Haemonculi (with support) that were guarding a wraithgate.  It was hideous.

8 Banshees plus two Exarchs fighting a 2+ CC first strike
vs
2 Haemonculi, 4 Grotesques, 2 Talos, three Raiders, and 1 Perditor war engine.  

Two close combat monster formations collided.

Before I could even do anything I had lost both Talos, a Grotesque and a Haemonculi stand.  
The Dark Eldar had some great rolls on the attack and ended up winning the assault resolution by 2, but given circumstances I think the Banshees did VERY well.  

2+ CC first strike seems like more than enough in my eyes.
Author:  Ginger [ Wed May 20, 2009 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
As Chroma says, we had quite a large debate on Banshees, and the vast majority wanted to go with the 'CC2+ First Strike' option, mainly I think because they felt it would be the easiest solution to understand and to implement.

That said, I don't think that many have tried it (Moscovian's report being an exception to this). I might also add that at least part of the issue lies in the Banshee armour value. 5+ armour is quite vulnerable to enemy counter-attacks etc.

Banshees do work better in Wave Serpents (better protection, an enhanced assault range, and better consolidation), but even so, the other Aspects each have a particular niche which the Banshees lack.

I am unsure about "infiltrate" as this would still leave the formation in danger after a successfull assault, and their 5+ armour is likely to mean they will not survive long in an exposed position.

Amour 4+ might work better by making the Banshees more able to survive attacks, but this is untried.
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed May 20, 2009 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
Quote: (frogbear @ 20 May 2009, 14:27 )

Not considering taking them, ever, is a real concern. Is this the general concensus?

If something is in a list, it needs to fill a role otherwise it has no place being there. Banshees need a role as they are an integral part of the Fluff for the Eldar - and they look good!

As the stats are now, the Banshees are better at a very narrow niche of targets - decent or good CC, low armor value (like the Dark Eldar in Mosc's example).  Against anything else Scorpions are better.

But that niche is too narrow.  It's not good to take them unless you know for a fact that their ideal targets will be on the board.  In any sort of general purpose list, they are a poor choice.
Author:  Chroma [ Wed May 20, 2009 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
Quote: (nealhunt @ 20 May 2009, 23:07 )

In any sort of general purpose list, they are a poor choice.

And that's the problem... *sigh*  Yet that *is* their niche.  

Infiltrators means they could get to the "softer" targets they're good at... representing their arcobatic skill and paralyzing defenders who can't stop them.
Author:  Moscovian [ Wed May 20, 2009 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
FYI the Dark Eldar in this case were actually my heavy armor (I know, they don't look it but...)

Haemonculi are 4+
Grotesques are 5+
Talos are 4+ RA

He did a fine job of slicing them up. It is just one report I recognize though.

In any sort of general purpose list, they are a poor choice.

I'm not convinced of this.  A full 8 x Banshees are great for taking out smaller formations.  Regardless of the Banshee armor, a formation of 8 will have 6-7 successful first strike hits.  A target formation with 3-4 units is likely to suffer at the hands of the Banshees even if they are Leman Russ.  

Likewise light/no armor is a valid target.

The CC2+ seems to bring them up to par quite nicely.
Author:  Chroma [ Wed May 20, 2009 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
Quote: (Moscovian @ 20 May 2009, 23:14 )

He did a fine job of slicing them up. It is just one report I recognize though.

I still think I'd rather have had eight Striking Scorpions in that situation... almost double the attacks (worse CC score, granted) and more durable armour...
Author:  Chroma [ Wed May 20, 2009 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
Quote: (Moscovian @ 20 May 2009, 23:14 )

I'm not convinced of this.  A full 8 x Banshees are great for taking out smaller formations.  Regardless of the Banshee armor, a formation of 8 will have 6-7 successful first strike hits.  A target formation with 3-4 units is likely to suffer at the hands of the Banshees even if they are Leman Russ.

Why not just clip such small formations with eight Warp Spiders?  Greater threat range, better mobility, better armour... and a lot less risk.
Author:  Ginger [ Wed May 20, 2009 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
Increasing their movement to 30cm to allow them to escape post assault might also help (again their acrobatic skill in dodging bullets 'Matrix style').

As you may recall, the 'Fluffyphiles' amoung us suggested the Banshee niche was supposed to be Heavy infantry rather than hordes (Scorpions / Avengers) or armour (Spears / Dragons). The problem being that the existing mechanics make that very hard to target in isolation, and the discussion showed people were averse to creating another 'Special Rule' to provide this.

So how can we move forward on this? Should we review the options and try again with a narrower selection?
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