Tactical Command
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Fire dragons and exarchs/Autarchs
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=14242		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  stompzilla [ Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:51 am ]
Post subject:  Fire dragons and exarchs/Autarchs
Quick question for you guys.

Firedragons have MWs and a MW 4+ FF.  Does this then mean that any extra attacks the base recieves (Due to the addition of an exarch or autarch for e.g.) would also be MW FF attacks?

I've searched the rules and the evidence seems to point towards this being the case.  How is this normally treated throughout the community at large?
Author:  Dave [ Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:55 am ]
Post subject:  Fire dragons and exarchs/Autarchs
This has been asked before, I can't remember the answer though. In my opinion, the EA should not be a MW. The EA is from the Exarch CC Weapon and is a separate attack from the Fusion Blasters.

Ya I know its supposed to represent a Fusion Lance but then Fire Dragon Exarchs should be worth more than say a Dire Avenger Exarch.
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Fire dragons and exarchs/Autarchs
No MW.  The Exarch extra attacks are on their own weapon stat line and that line does not have MW on it.  Like other melta weapons in the game, the Fire Dragon MW only applies to the basic FF attack.

That same convention was also used for the LR Crusader's combination of extra attacks and MW from the melta - MW for the basic FF attack, extra attacks as separate entries w/o MW.

=====

I'm all for the NetEA project creating aspect-specific Exarchs but that's Chroma's call.
Author:  zombocom [ Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Fire dragons and exarchs/Autarchs
Another one to note is the banshee Exarch, which doesn't get first strike.
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Fire dragons and exarchs/Autarchs
Quote: (Hena @ 16 Dec. 2008, 16:19 )

Yet curiously Warp Spider Exarch gets a first strike.

That's because the Banshee first strike is on the weapon, while the Warp Spider first strike is in the Notes, and applies to all attacks made by the unit.

That's why I feel that the Fire Dragon Exarch *does* get MW on its extra attack, as a Fire Dragon unit has, essentially, MWFF4+; so any "extra attacks" would be using that stat as well.  Reading the "rules as written" that's what they seem to mean to me.
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Fire dragons and exarchs/Autarchs
Also see comments in this thread (which echoes the discussion here)
Author:  stompzilla [ Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Fire dragons and exarchs/Autarchs
So the overiding consensus is that i have been doing this correctly and they do get an extra MW attack?
Author:  Dave [ Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Fire dragons and exarchs/Autarchs
I think only Chroma has said yes they do. Everyone else has said no.

But hey, house-rule it however you want.
Author:  zombocom [ Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Fire dragons and exarchs/Autarchs
Quote: (stompzilla @ 16 Dec. 2008, 19:31 )

So the overiding consensus is that i have been doing this correctly and they do get an extra MW attack?

The general concensus is that you're doing it wrong, and they don't get the extra attack.

Though it is not 100% clear either way.
Author:  stompzilla [ Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:47 am ]
Post subject:  Fire dragons and exarchs/Autarchs
Chroma is the Eldar champion though is he not?

I can't find any rules or fluff justification for them not getting the extra MW attack.
Author:  Chroma [ Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:29 am ]
Post subject:  Fire dragons and exarchs/Autarchs
Quote: (stompzilla @ 17 Dec. 2008, 01:47 )

Chroma is the Eldar champion though is he not?

I am, but the list was created under the auspices of Jervis and company, and they wrote that bit, so I can't claim "authority" on it.  I'll say that our local group plays with it giving the Exarch attack MW, but, again, that's not "proof", as it seems many people do not.

I can't find any rules or fluff justification for them not getting the extra MW attack.

To me, a *strict* reading of the note-as-written is that the MW ability is "granted" to the FF attack value of the Fire Dragon, the Exarch uses that value for its FF extra attack, therefore, its attacks have MW as well.  If the secondary note at the bottom of the unit description wasn't there, and, honestly, I'm not sure why it's even needed, as they don't mention it for first strike on the Howling Banshees, then the Exarch would definitely *not* get MW on its extra attacks.  But I advise people to read the "secondary note" again and show me how it *doesn't*, as written, grant MW to any extra attacks the Fire Dragon unit makes.

Now, this may be an "unintended" consequence, as the situation doesn't come up any place else in the "core" army lists; there's no other unit-with-upgrade that grants a an extra attack to something with MW firefight that doesn't *also* grant MW firefight, e.g., Marine Librarian on a Land Speeder.

It *has* been used on the Land Raider Crusader, but I was against writing it that way, and felt the "Pintle Mounted Multi-Melta" should've granted an extra MW attack instead of being the "base" attack of the unit, but that's another discussion.

Lastly, I highly advise against resorting to "fluff" reasons when trying to figure out rules, it rarely convinces anyone.   :laugh:
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Fire dragons and exarchs/Autarchs
Quote: (stompzilla @ 17 Dec. 2008, 01:47 )

I can't find any rules or fluff justification for them not getting the extra MW attack.

There aren't rules specifically against it.  Unit data sheets say what the unit can do, not what is excluded.  The Exarch character has a weapon stat line.  That stat line does not have MW, so in the absence of something that explicitly gives the FD Exarch MW on the Extra Attack, it does not have it.

The question is whether the explanation in the Notes section of the FD data sheet means that the MW is a unit ability and applies to everything the unit does (meaning it would also add MW to the EA) or whether it's solely an explanation of a rule exception and therefore does not impart anything beyond what is explicitly in the weapon stat line(s).

I don't know why it never made it into the FAQs, but it's come up many times on the boards and the answer has been the same from the answer mods and the old ERC when it was functioning:  The note is explanatory, not a unit ability.  MW without EA only applies to the unit's basic attack with the weapon that has the MW ability.  It does not automatically turn every attack by the unit into MW.

That decision/reasoning is obviously not universally accepted.  However, it has been applied consistently and has been used in creating new units as well, e.g. the Land Raider Crusader that has EA FF attacks and a MWFF from a Multimelta that does not apply to the EA FF attacks.

==

That said, it remains your game.  If the guys you play with want to make the FD Exarch +1EA MW, then do it.
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