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Ulthwe vs Guard 2700

 Post subject: Ulthwe vs Guard 2700
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:05 am 
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Ulthwe -
2x Guardian Warhosts, Seer Council and 3 HWPs on one, 1 HWP on the other
1 Vampire Raider (weaker Guardians inside)
2 Night Spinner Troupes
2 Fire Prism Troupes
1 Falcon Troupe, 2 Firestorms
2 Revenants

Steel Legion -
SC formation
Mech formation
Mech formation w/ 4 2x Autocannon guys
2 Hydra formations
3 3-strong Manticore formations
2 Deathstrikes

Eldar deployed in two concentrations (where the forests were), fairly spread out to avoid Manticore fire.  Guard shoved almost everything into a corner (roughly behind a forest).  

Turn 1 - Strategy: Ulthwe
Falcons double forwards to land in the big forest that the Guard are cowering behind, killing a Deathstrike and breaking the formation on the way in.  One of them hits a tree and dies.  Some Prisms along the board edge, taking advantage of the SC reroll, took potshots at some Manticores in the corner - no casualties.  They then moved behind a hill halfway up the board.  The Night Spinners in that corner then failed initiative, and decided to regroup (they were still intermingled with some Guardians, but other than that, this corner was clear of Eldar stuff).  The Guard Manticore response broke the Night Spinners (killing one), killed a Guardian, while the next set of Manticores put 2 BMs on the Revenants and broke the other Night Spinner troupe (these, along with the other Prisms, were in the middle of the Eldar deployment zone), killling one again.  The Vampire came in and broke some Manticores, killing one.  One mech formation ran up behind the Falcons and unloaded, killing 2 and breaking them - they ran back behind the Prisms.  The prisms were shot at by another doubling mech company, killing one and breaking them.  The unbroken group of Prisms (the one in the middle) failed initiative and moved forward.  The last group of Manticores put another BM on the Revenants.  They then regrouped and moved forwards.  The last mech formation failed initiative and moved a bit to its right, and the Guardians decided to move slightly so as to get as far into their forest as possible.  Unfortunately, my memory is starts to fail me at this point, but most of the Eldar stuff failed to rally, as did most of the Guard artillery.

Turn 2 - Strategy: Ulthwe
Night Spinners fired on one of the tightly packed mech formations, putting 4 BMs on it and killing 2 of the 2x Autocannon units.  The Vampire then came on and broke the only Manticore formation that rallied (leaving just one unbroken - the one that the Prisms failed to injure).  A mech formation ran forwards and shot up the Guardians, killing two.  A single Revenant (they failed their 1+ rally roll) fired at them, killing one.  Hydras swooped around the other side of the forest, taking down the last of the Guardians.  The next mech formation came in and dropped a Prism from the 2-strong Prism unit, breaking it.  The 3-strong Prism group shot up the broken Deathstrike, eliminating it.  The last mech group did little.  Lots of stuff rallied, excepting one Manticore formation and a few of the broken Eldar things.

Turn 3 - Strategy: Ulthwe
The Vampire came in and promptly disgorged Guardians, shooting at and breaking the Manticores in the corner while it did so (we think this was legal).  The Guardians retained and assaulted another nearby group of Manticores, wiping them out.  The Revenants (who now only had 1 BM) retained and sustained on the nearby mech formation, wiping out 10 models and breaking them.  The Guard used their next two activations to break every unactivated Eldar formation.  They moved out so as to claim several objectives, but ended up not pulling out a win thanks to the Guardians deep behind their lines, though not for lack of trying.  Hydras and the largest mech formation had moved over and fired on them.

Turn 4 - Strategy: Ulthwe
The Avatar having been summoned, he called a combined assault with the Guardians and Vampire (again, was this legal?) against the big mech group.  It was a total slaughter - the Avatar was critical'd, and the Vampire destroyed.  Four Guardians bit it too, and the rest were cleaned up in the aftermath.  The Guard used their next two activations to break the remaining Eldar formations, excepting the Titans.  The Revenants then failed initiative and sat around doing nothing.  The rest was cleanup.  The Guard ended up winning 2-0, having two objectives on the Eldar side and no unbroken formations on their side.

Analysis to come, and apologies for the lack of detail.  I'm having trouble remembering where everything was for some reason.


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 Post subject: Ulthwe vs Guard 2700
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:24 am 
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Army list selction - why no intergral hydra with the three mechanised formations?

Manticores-  always worth deploying them in cover and hoping you don't fail initiative!

Vampire/guardians. When you come in you disgorge the guardians as you did, then either both shoot the target formation or both assualt the formation (combined assualt). You can't shoot with the vampitre, then active the guardians to do something else.

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 Post subject: Ulthwe vs Guard 2700
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:03 am 
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I'm thinking that it was the artillery that did me in.  I had to take down the Deathstrikes, as they had a reasonable chance of downing a Revenant with their one shot.  Each Manticore group was virtually guaranteed to inflict 3 BMs on any of my vehicle formations, so they had to go too.  I didn't have the activations or the ability to get in there and cut them up, because doing so meant facing upwards of 15 or so Autocannons.  The Vampire certainly couldn't run the Hydra gauntlet with any reliability either.

I'm thinking that this has finally forced me back to Biel-tan in order to reach the safety of the Void Spinner.  I could go overboard with 3 troupes of 4 Hawks each, but he'll just deploy in clumps and force the Hawks back, and the Guard player is smart enough to deploy such that doubling and shooting with anything but a Prism will get me killed, thanks to the new skimmer rules (and even the Prisms will get torn up by the mech formations).  Aircraft simply won't work unless I can knock out the Hydras, and staying away doesn't work with the massive range on those Manticores.  I need to outrange him, and I'm at a complete loss as to what options are available to Ulthwe to do this.  The problem is that if I fail to stop the artillery immediately, they'll unload half a game's worth of firepower on me (the whole game's worth in the case of the Deathstrikes), and my vehicles simply can't take that kind of beating.  If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears.

On experimental rules - Spirit Stones was the only thing keeping me in the game at all past the first turn.  I had bunches of broken 2-strong squads (Falcons, Spinners, Prisms) running around, and that extra removal was a godsend.  Limiting me to 3/turn would've hurt a bit, though I rarely rallied that many things, as would removing them from any of the vehicles (excepting the Titans).  It hardly affected the Guardians - they rallied once.

I'm very much of the opinion that Ulthwe SR5 is more than balanced out by the complete lack of long-range artillery.  Replacing the Night Spinners with Void Spinners could well have turned the game around.  I'd still have had an excellent chance of going first on the first turn, and he would have been forced to come to me after having his Manticores suppressed (even had I not gone first, it's much harder to suppress a Void Spinner, and it's much easier to space them out from other units).  The fact that the Vampire had Guardians and not 8 Aspect Warriors hurt too, though I'm still quite fond of the cheaper SC that is the Seer Council.

If anyone has any questions, or anything they'd like to ask the Guard player about what he thought, I'd be glad to answer them.

I think I might give Saim-Hann a whirl next, though the list would be much more attractive with an SC.  Perhaps something like a Wraithgate, 2 Storm Serpents, 2 Wind Rider hosts (Farseer, +6 Jetbikes, +3 Spears), 2 Vampire Hunters, 2 Prism Troupes, and 4 Hawks.  See how people like having their flanks assaulted by Wild Riders for my first four activations, though it'd be funny if someone beats me to the punch and pops both Serpents.

I'm more than happy to playtest whatever, but I didn't see any sort of notice as to what needed doing, so I've just been flitting around between variant lists, trying whatever struck me as interesting.


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 Post subject: Ulthwe vs Guard 2700
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:40 pm 
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Nasty matchup. Infantry/arty guard list is one that really gives eldar a hard time. I use Biel Tan without void spinners, and find that titans (phantom with double pulse) can be good for picking off the guard artillery (or at least forcing them to move instead of shooting, in addition to being pretty immune to arty. You have to flank the enemy line first though as the arty is invaribly behind cover.

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 Post subject: Ulthwe vs Guard 2700
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:31 pm 
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Hi Gotchaye

Could you relate what happened to the Falcons / Firstorms, which seem to have disappeared after their initial success in turn 1.

Also, could you explain your reasoning for 2x Fire Prisms and 2x Night Spinners, which are notoriously brittle and prime targets for IG artillery.

Finally, have you considered using 2x Storm Serpents to march up to a target and assault out of the on-board 'gate' with guardians or even Aspects? - Softer targets like his artillery should sucumb to this quite easily under the right circumstances, and even 10 strong tank companies will buckle under assaults of 8x mixed aspects with 2x Exarchs and support.

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 Post subject: Ulthwe vs Guard 2700
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:39 am 
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They got very quickly annihilated.  They were the only thing I had that was able to get a bead on the Deathstrikes, and those things had to go.  They were right in front of the majority of the Guard army, and the fact that they were hiding in a forest didn't save them.  Enough 8+ AT hits will still take them down.  Long story short, they got broken, forcing them back out into the open in order to try to prevent some easy kills from BMs, and pretty much failed to regroup for the whole game.

I took 2x Fire Prisms because I think Fire Prisms are cool.  I can't say that I've been playing long enough to really have a feel for what's good and what's not, but I'm just thrilled to have a Prism Cannon that doesn't suck horribly.  The Night Spinners are in there because I felt I needed some form of indirect fire and some form of template weapon so as to force the Guard to spread out a bit more.  The last thing I need is for the lot of them to clump in to one area.  It's also not just Guard that I'm up against - I find that the Prisms are quite useful against Tau support craft, and Night Spinners put the hurt on Suits of all kinds.

The problem with assaults with Serpents is that all the good stuff is hidden behind massive mech infantry formations.  Nothing I've got can really deal with 12 infantry and 6 chimaeras with any kind of efficiency.  Additionally, a 250pt Serpent and a 150pt Guardian/Aspect formation is still inefficient against these piddly 250pt artillery groups.  He doesn't take tank formations.  As well, I'm just not a fan of infantry - I much prefer a more Eldar Armored Company approach.

I've recently been toying with rather heavy modifications to the list.  I'd have 3 Guardian warhosts, 2 Falcon troupes, 2 Fire Prism troupes, 2 Vampires, some Hawks with an Exarch, some Scorpions with an Exarch, and some Reapers, all backed up by a Wraithship.  I'd put one group of Guardians and the Scorpions into the Vampires, and use them as anti-artillery.  The Wraithship forces really spread out deployment, which works to my advantage, and if I get lucky I can put the hurt on some artillery early on.  Failing everything else, the Hawks can teleport in and suicide assault something.  It worked rather well against the Tau recently, though he did bring a Manta (he's sworn never to do that again).  Unfortunately, I didn't remember enough detail to write out a battle report.






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 Post subject: Ulthwe vs Guard 2700
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:50 pm 
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Ulthwe -
2x Guardian Warhosts, Seer Council and 3 HWPs on one, 1 HWP on the other
1 Vampire Raider (weaker Guardians inside)
2 Night Spinner Troupes
2 Fire Prism Troupes
1 Falcon Troupe, 2 Firestorms
2 Revenants


Is it me or were the Eldar 400pts short of 2700?

Tim

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 Post subject: Ulthwe vs Guard 2700
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:45 pm 
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@Tim

I think it was a 2400pt game (that what both sides come to by my count).


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 Post subject: Ulthwe vs Guard 2700
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:14 pm 
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Oh wow - that might explain the stomping.  Guard still had about 2700, by my count.


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 Post subject: Ulthwe vs Guard 2700
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:17 am 
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My bad, I only counted 2 manticore batteries, instead of 3.

In other news, it looks like the eldar player forgot a 3rd warhost, to. He has 2 hosts and 7 troupes - ILLEGAL! Maybe there was supposed to be a big stompy host of guardians.


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 Post subject: Ulthwe vs Guard 2700
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:54 pm 
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I believe that I only had 5 troupes - 2 Spinners, 2 Prisms, and a Falcon.  The Vampire and the Revenants are not troupes, but are taken instead from the Eldar Spacecraft, War Engines, and Aircraft section of the list, their only limitation being that no more than 1/3 of the army's points may be spent on them.


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 Post subject: Ulthwe vs Guard 2700
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:25 pm 
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Oh, those don't count toward the limit? I always thought they did.


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 Post subject: Ulthwe vs Guard 2700
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:28 pm 
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Gotchaye, is quite correct.  The vampires and revenant come from the "allies" section, and do not require troupe slots (same for most armies with similar list structures; IG, Tau etc)


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 Post subject: Ulthwe vs Guard 2700
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:50 pm 
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Nice to know that I'm not going mad :p

Tim

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 Post subject: Ulthwe vs Guard 2700
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:33 pm 
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Quote (semajnollissor @ 06 April 2006 (08:25))
Oh, those don't count toward the limit? I always thought they did.

Gotchaye has it correct IMHO Semaj...

cheers,

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