Two Games without Spirit Stones. |
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Markconz
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Post subject: Two Games without Spirit Stones.  Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:03 am |
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Well two more games at 3K, this time with no SS (and all current Exp rules). Ulthwe used the following (10 activations plus Avatar):
Gate,
Avatar
Black Guardians, Vypers, Support Platforms, Seer Council.
2 Guardians, Wraithguard, Support Platforms.
Phoenix's
2 Scorpions (1 formation)
1 Storm Serpent
Fire Prisms
2 Night Spinners
Swooping Hawks plus Exarch.
I used the following Biel Tan list (12 activations plus Avatar).
Avatar
Gate
Guardians, HW platforms, Wraithguard.
2 x Guardians
Dark Reapers
Striking Scorpions (Exarch, Autarch).
Swooping Hawks (2 Exarchs).
2 Vampires
Nightwings
Falcons
Fire Prisms
Jetbikes
I started with only Falcons, Fireprisms, Jetbikes, and Reapers on board. ?Ulthwe left their two Guardian formations offtable.
Once again I butchered my Autarch formation by air assaulting a black guardian formation which was waiting on overwatch. Cue toasted vampire and all occupants. My other vampire was lost trying to ground attack the Ulthwe Fire Prisms (two failed saves = boom). On the left flank Ulthwe won a big battle between their two guardian formations, and my reapers, bikes and a guardian formation. ?My Swooping Hawks suffered two blast markers when they 'teleported', and took two casualties from the Nightspinners they were about to engage, so broke without doing anything.
I gave up about halfway through turn 3 as I had no way to halt the oncoming ulthwe hordes.
Next game against marines I used the same list. Marines used:
Tacticals with dread, Captain
Tacticals with dread, Chaplain
2 x Whirlwinds with Hunter
Scouts with Sniper
Terminators
Reaver (exp rules)
Marauders
I won this by concentrating on everything but the Reaver, and grabbing the objectives. ?The marines were a little rusty skillwise however.
My conclusion from these games is that no SS seemed to work pretty damn well... small tank formations were not as unusable as I feared they might be.
Perhaps most importantly I actually found using my eldar a lot more enjoyable without SS - I was back to being a lot more careful with the eldar units as I would expect to be - they were not the super army anymore. My Ulthwe opponent (who doesn't follow any of the epic discussions online) made an interesting and revealing comment when I told him that we were now playing without SS instead of some SS rule modification - ?saying he "wasn't surprised 'they' had decided to just remove SS altogether".
So my initial impression after my first two playtests of MC23's suggestion to just use no SS? Good!
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MC23
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Post subject: Two Games without Spirit Stones. Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:27 pm |
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Vypers and Jetbikes in Black Guardian Hosts are only with Hosts mounted in Waveserpents. It is written that way but I need to find a way to make that clearer.
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Markconz
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Post subject: Two Games without Spirit Stones. Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:15 pm |
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| Quote (MC23 @ 16 April 2006 (13:27)) | | Vypers and Jetbikes in Black Guardian Hosts are only with Hosts mounted in Waveserpents. It is written that way but I need to find a way to make that clearer. |
Ok cheers. Will mention it to the Ulthwe players.
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Jaldon
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Post subject: Two Games without Spirit Stones. Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:51 am |
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Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.
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It does involve a change in tactics when SS is eliminated from the Eldar but, as you have discovered, it isn't a dibilitating change.
IMHO it makes them more fun to play, not less fun, as they are less capable of blitzing their way through problems thus forcing the Eldar player to better time his force usage.
Also, if an Eldar player uses the army's excellant maneuverability to jab before punching, against an aggressive foe, they can overcome the 4th Turn Wilt.
Thanks for the reports Mark (Sorry Freudian Slip)
Jaldon 
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Tactica
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Post subject: Two Games without Spirit Stones. Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:22 pm |
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Perhaps most importantly I actually found using my eldar a lot more enjoyable without SS - I was back to being a lot more careful with the eldar units as I would expect to be - they were not the super army anymore. My Ulthwe opponent (who doesn't follow any of the epic discussions online) made an interesting and revealing comment when I told him that we were now playing without SS instead of some SS rule modification - ?saying he "wasn't surprised 'they' had decided to just remove SS altogether".
So my initial impression after my first two playtests of MC23's suggestion to just use no SS? ?Good! |
This is encouraging and an interesting findings Markconz.
Thanks for the posts.
Were the 3-unit tank formations using cover more. What about pop-up?
How about hit-and-run, did you find yourself making more use of this as well? I've found that many games that we played the Eldar with, the hit-and-run was icing on the cake that wasn't really needed. I would expect that without playing as a brute force list (loss of SS) that the hit-and-run would become much more valuable to the Eldar playstyle right out of the gate.
PS - interesting to see the Ulthwe ran you through! LOL 
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semajnollissor
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Post subject: Two Games without Spirit Stones. Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:41 pm |
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I'm not sure how telling these 2 games really are, given that one was an Eldar-vs-Eldar fight (which makes the change a wash), and one game was against SMs (which are weak anyway - what modifications to the SM rules did you use?).
More telling will be games against rulebook orks and IG, since those armies tend to be more competitive.
Also, what was the point limit for the game? 3000?
check my points, these are off the top of my head:
free ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Avatar
50 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Gate
150+150 ? ? ?- Guardians, HW platforms, Wraithguard.
2x150 ? ? ? ? ?- 2 x Guardians
300 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Dark Reapers
300+25+75 ?- Striking Scorpions (Exarch, Autarch).
300+2x25 ? ?- Swooping Hawks (2 Exarchs).
2x200 ? ? ? ? ?- 2 Vampires
300 ? ? ? ? ? ? - Nightwings
250 ? ? ? ? ? ? - Falcons
250 ? ? ? ? ? ? - Fire Prisms
200 ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jetbikes
total: 3100points
Is that what the other lists come out to?
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Tactica
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Post subject: Two Games without Spirit Stones. Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:17 pm |
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| Quote (semajnollissor @ 21 April 2006 (15:41)) | I'm not sure how telling these 2 games really are, given that one was an Eldar-vs-Eldar fight (which makes the change a wash), and one game was against SMs (which are weak anyway - what modifications to the SM rules did you use?).
More telling will be games against rulebook orks and IG, since those armies tend to be more competitive. |
I agree with this.
I'll admit that I would to see what transpired in the games i.e. how things were played, what tactical vs. strategic decisions were made, and I'd like to get an idea of the battlefield layout, so pictures are always a plus!
That said, what was encouraging about these two reports is that they are exactly what we need to see more of, player feedback from games played.
We see here that SS did impact the list in such a way that the Eldar player was more cautious. That's a good thing in my book! Therefore, I'm encouraged.
The Eldar v Eldar game was not exactly what I would have liked to see, but I think that data is still of value - from "how the list was played" perspective. I would have expected the impacts to affect both players, but nonetheless, the traditional play vs. revised play aspects should have still been present in a E v E game.
I give less merit (if any) to a vs. Marines game in E:A because I feel the list is broken... and in the wrong way.
I definitely value the multiple reports from Markconz that Eldar are appearently playable (if not more challenging and enjoyable) from Markconz's multiple bat reps where SS are not used at all! Of course we cannot make decisions from only one players games or only one player's feedback, but its a place to start.
If more could do this, we could see how the list plays against a multitude of opponents and from various general's perspectives.
I do hope for some of the future batreps to have a bit more meat to them though. 
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Markconz
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Post subject: Two Games without Spirit Stones. Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:22 pm |
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| Quote (Tactica @ 21 April 2006 (19:22)) | This is encouraging and an interesting findings Markconz.
Thanks for the posts.
Were the 3-unit tank formations using cover more. What about pop-up?
How about hit-and-run, did you find yourself making more use of this as well? I've found that many games that we played the Eldar with, the hit-and-run was icing on the cake that wasn't really needed. I would expect that without playing as a brute force list (loss of SS) that the hit-and-run would become much more valuable to the Eldar playstyle right out of the gate.
PS - interesting to see the Ulthwe ran you through! LOL |
HI Tactica, the 3 tank formations were all using cover and pop-up (as they would anyway), but we used hit and run more. I kept my fire prisms well back, with double actions to move foward, shoot something, then run back. Previously in Eldar vs eldar games we just concentrated on killing each other, but now preserving units was more beneficial - you can do proportionally more damage to eldar with less firepower (and if you are eldar you can do this with hit and run moves thereby preserving your own strength in the process).
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Markconz
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Post subject: Two Games without Spirit Stones. Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:26 pm |
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| Quote (semajnollissor @ 21 April 2006 (20:41)) | | I'm not sure how telling these 2 games really are, given that one was an Eldar-vs-Eldar fight (which makes the change a wash), |
I wouldn't say playing eldar vs eldar makes rule changes a 'wash'. There are many more factors to consider than simply win/loss ratios - for instance which units are worth taking and how can use them effectively with no SS rule in effect. Eg are the small tank formations neutered?
You are right that more games are necessary though. Hopefully people besides myself will post more.
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MC23
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Post subject: Two Games without Spirit Stones. Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:12 pm |
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Well I can tell you detailed battlereports isn't that useful to me. I play Eldar so I know what a game would look like. Army composition tells me a lot (especially when it's something I normally don't emphasize) and any useful observations made during the game. I can always ask follow up questions if I need more info.
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MC23
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Post subject: Two Games without Spirit Stones. Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:22 pm |
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| Quote (Markconz @ 22 April 2006 (07:22)) | | HI Tactica, the 3 tank formations were all using cover and pop-up (as they would anyway), but we used hit and run more. I kept my fire prisms well back, with double actions to move foward, shoot something, then run back. Previously in Eldar vs eldar games we just concentrated on killing each other, but now preserving units was more beneficial - you can do proportionally more damage to eldar with less firepower (and if you are eldar you can do this with hit and run moves thereby preserving your own strength in the process). |
This I find interesting since my playing style never changed with the introduction of Spirit Stones. Spirit Stones didn't add much to support that style play. That is why I have always said Spirit Stones did not have that much effect on the game. Casualties hurt Eldar more than Blast markers, but Blast markers were a lingering pain afterwards (pre-Spirit Stones).
That bit of information was useful to me.
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Tactica
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Post subject: Two Games without Spirit Stones. Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:25 pm |
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| Quote (Markconz @ 22 April 2006 (06:22)) | |
HI Tactica, the 3 tank formations were all using cover and pop-up (as they would anyway),
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Agreed, this is generally a solid tactic for skimmers. I wouldn't expect much change on this front. i.e. its generally good to stand back and shoot and use cover as a natural shield best you can. Makes sense.
but we used hit and run more.
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Interesting. I wondered if this would happen - but I expected it would take more playtest games to adopt the playstyle change. Very interesting how quickly you guys picked up on this advantage.
I kept my fire prisms well back, with double actions to move foward, shoot something, then run back. Previously in Eldar vs eldar games we just concentrated on killing each other, but now preserving units was more beneficial
This is exactly why the rule *fits* with the eldar - dieing race theme and all. I'm glad to see this being valued more as a tactic. To me, this is a very good result side effect from the elimination of SS rule.
I also wonder if good management and utilization of this rule couldn't help manage any perceived 'wilt' beyond what other armies incur. Let's face it, all armies (Exception: bugs) suffer from some amount of wilt and some amount of BM as the game progresses. Not all armies have a 'constantly move to cover after firing' option though.
I've quietly postulated that hit-and-run will become Eldar's greatest asset in post SS-rule removed games.
- you can do proportionally more damage to eldar with less firepower (and if you are eldar you can do this with hit and run moves thereby preserving your own strength in the process).
Thank you for the elaboration. Very helpful indeed. This is something I'll be looking for in upcoming games and batreps - i.e. how much hit-and-run starts being used as compared to how little it was used in the past (as it just wasn't needed).
Good observations.
cheers,
Any questions people have about the game or how a unit performed I am happy to answer to the best of my ability. I do agree that some photos would be a vast improvement and will strive to provide them next time