Tactical Command
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Howling Banshee Poll
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=11725		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Ginger [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:19 am ]
Post subject:  Howling Banshee Poll
Given the debate so far, lets try a straw poll to see where we stand.

Note, I have presented the options in their increasing order of power (IMO).

For reference, here is my example of 6X Banshees Vs 6x enemy.
Number of enemy units killed by Banshees given the various profiles, and using Scorpions as comparison:-
Armour ? ? Scorpions ? ? ? CC3+ ? ? CC4+, MW ? ? ? CC2+ ? ? CC5+, EA+1, MW ? ? CC4+, EA+1 ? ? CC4+, EA+1, MW
None ? ? ? ? ? ?6.00 ? ? ? ? ? 4.00 ? ? ? ? 3.00 ? ? ? ? ? 5.00 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4.00 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 5.50 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 5.50
6+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 5.00 ? ? ? ? ? 3.33 ? ? ? ? 3.00 ? ? ? ? ? 4.17 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3.57 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4.65 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4.94
5+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4.00 ? ? ? ? ? 2.67 ? ? ? ? 3.00 ? ? ? ? ? 3.33 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3.19 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3.78 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4.44
4+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3.00 ? ? ? ? ? 2.00 ? ? ? ? 3.00 ? ? ? ? ? 2.50 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 2.83 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 2.88 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4.00
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
6+RA ? ? ? ? ? 4.17 ? ? ? ? ? 2.78 ? ? ? ? 2.50 ? ? ? ? ? ?3.47 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 2.29 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3.93 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4.20
5+RA ? ? ? ? ? 2.67 ? ? ? ? ? 1.78 ? ? ? ? 2.00 ? ? ? ? ? ?2.22 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1.25 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?2.57 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3.09
4+RA ? ? ? ? ? 1.50 ? ? ? ? ? 1.00 ? ? ? ? 1.50 ? ? ? ? ? ?1.25 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 0.62 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1.47 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 2.13
Author:  Chroma [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:28 am ]
Post subject:  Howling Banshee Poll
You haven't put the CC sniper option in the poll/analysis.

Something else to consider is an increase to 20cm movement or adding infiltrator. ?Sorry to add to the confusion, but those are possible options as well.
Author:  Ginger [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:38 am ]
Post subject:  Howling Banshee Poll
I was trying to keep the options simple at this point to gauge general opinion Chroma
- Sniper seems to be similar to MW in assault (and also adds another layer of confusion),
- increased movement does add reach, but also makes the EA+1 options more deadly

Also I realise that I got the last two the wrong way round and omitted CC4+ MW (between CC3+ IC and CC3+ IMW) :blush:

Do you want to add these variants - if so, we will have to resubmit it and ask CS or some other moderator to kill this thread as I cannot delete the thread or lock it.
Author:  rpr [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Howling Banshee Poll
Of those, I voted CC 2+ FS. No special rules, thank you, and ignore cover for CC is one of those as would sniper be...

However, this would have been harder choice if it would have included choices like 'move 20cm', 'CC MW 4+ FS' or 'infiltrator'
Author:  Markconz [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Howling Banshee Poll

(Chroma @ Feb. 17 2008,00:28)
QUOTE
You haven't put the CC sniper option in the poll/analysis.

Something else to consider is an increase to 20cm movement or adding infiltrator.  Sorry to add to the confusion, but those are possible options as well.

There really is no good justification at all for Banshees getting sniper. That sounds like a really left field suggestion - especially given the change document amendment clarification to the sniper ability such that it does not apply in assaults. Such an ability should only be on characters like assassins, certainly not a troop type like Banshees.

Move/infiltrate are more serious alternatives I guess, but meh, it looks like people are overwhelmingly favouring the simple nudge to CC value (2+ FS) rather than being split between  more convoluted suggestions. If people are happy enough with that - I say great, a nice and easy tweak which preserves the feel of the unit rather than a complete restructure.
Author:  zombocom [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Howling Banshee Poll
Well, this one seems pretty clean cut.
Author:  Chroma [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Howling Banshee Poll

(Markconz @ Feb. 17 2008,11:57)
QUOTE
Move/infiltrate are more serious alternatives I guess, but meh, it looks like people are overwhelmingly favouring the simple nudge to CC value (2+ FS) rather than being split between ?more convoluted suggestions. If people are happy enough with that - I say great, a nice and easy tweak which preserves the feel of the unit rather than a complete restructure.

Well, it does look like CC2+, FS is taking a commanding lead, but here's the follow-up question:

Will you be taking Banshees now, with CC2+, FS?

I *still* would answer "No", as the versatility and durability of the other Aspect Warrior types is still more appealing to me.
Author:  Soren [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Howling Banshee Poll
As I said, It?s all about positioning and taking the Exarch. They are maybe not a 8 Stand Aspect as firedrakes or Dire Avengers but they have their usability. and FS is a VERY potent thing. I really hate playing against massed formations containing  it. It is shifting the chances to win an engagement strictly to one side.
Author:  zombocom [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Howling Banshee Poll
With an exarch they become definately worth taking.
Author:  Chroma [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Howling Banshee Poll
For pure Aspect Warhosts:

Eight Howling Banshes, with two Exarchs: Average 6.6 first strike hits plus 1.6 "regular" hits.

Eight Striking Scorpions, with two Exarchs: Average 9 hits.

In straight "hitting power", they're essentially equal; Banshees getting kills with first strike might be enough to balance the better armour of the Scorpions in actual assaults, but in terms of survival in "getting there" or being counter-attacked, the Scorpions still win out over the Banshees. ?

As well, from a purely subjective stance, I'd much rather be rolling 18 dice worth of attacks than 10 dice... just more thrilling.

EDIT - changed the average hits to account for Banshee Exarchs not having first strike
Author:  Ginger [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Howling Banshee Poll
This is s straw poll intended to gauge opinion on the desired increase to the basic power of Banshees, and to get some idea of views on the popularity or otherwise of the three basic power options:-
- Strong single attack
- Weaker double attack
- use "Infantry MW" note.

In a few days I want to try a second poll to cover off increased movement and "additional capabilities" against the more popular power options from this poll (and will include the single CC4+ MW option - promise :) ). So if you find it difficult to choose between two options, vote for one and list the other in the thread
Author:  Chroma [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Howling Banshee Poll

(Soren @ Feb. 17 2008,13:15)
QUOTE
and FS is a VERY potent thing. I really hate playing against massed formations containing ?it. It is shifting the chances to win an engagement strictly to one side.

First strike *is* very potent... but I'd rather have Warp Spiders delivering it at the edges of an enemy formation than Banshees stuck right in.

The CC2+, FS option seems to be the conservative choice for change, and that's completely reasonable.  I still don't think it's enough for me to take Banshees over another Aspect, other than purely for stylistic reason and because I like the ladies.  *laugh*

Let's get some playtesting in with this option and see how it goes!
Author:  Soren [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Howling Banshee Poll
@Chroma:

8 Hits from banshees mean really ever nobody is striking back. a BIG difference I think. Hell the engagement is finished before the enemy even rolles a dice if you do average hits. That is worth more than a plain +1 to armor.

The best defence is not to get hit.
Author:  Chroma [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Howling Banshee Poll

(Ginger @ Feb. 17 2008,13:22)
QUOTE
This is s straw poll intended to gauge opinion on the desired increase to the basic power of Banshees

I'd *really* like to hear from the person who voted that Banshees "are OK now"!  *laugh*
Author:  Ginger [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Howling Banshee Poll
@Soren, Chroma

The exarch question is interesting, because I am assuming that FS would remain on the weapon, thus giving 8x FS attacks, and 2x 'normal' attacks if you follow the letter of the rules strictly, causing a small subtle change in the assault resolution.
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