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Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
1. No to the Aspect Troupe idea 58%  58%  [ 23 ]
2. Yes to the Aspect Troupe idea 43%  43%  [ 17 ]
Total votes : 40

Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
Markconz
 Post subject: Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:49 am 
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One of the current ERC proposals in the Eldar 1.8 revision is that Eldar Biel Tan list receives the option of a 0-1 choice Aspect troupe, consisting of 4 Aspect Warriors (and transport and single exarch upgrades).

This is one of several issues that the two Eldar champions disagreed upon.

The first eldar champion Sotec, added this troupe to the list because he thought it was a good idea, representing the Eldar creating specific task forces for specific missions by only using a handful of Aspects sometimes. Alternatively he stated that it could represent the fact that sometimes there would not be enough Aspects left over to form a host so they would form a troupe instead. He also stated that it was a case of 'giving a little back' to the eldar after so much had been taken away.

The second eldar champion MC23, was very much against it as a gimmicky unnecessary addition added purely because it was something Edar players would like to have rather than something that improved the game. He quoted Jervis's Epic design philosophy that torunament forces should be defined as much by what they do not have, as by what they do. MC23 stated that the 4 strong aspect should remain a distinguishing feature of other Craftworlds and that it did not suit the Biel Tan tournament list concept.

So - the Aspect Troupe, should it stay or should it go? Have your say.


My own view is in agreement with MC23. As a Biel Tan player sure a 4 strong Aspect troupe would be useful, and I think that is all the more reason not to introduce it. I think this is a simply a case of minimaxing army composition and it is not a necessary or good addition to the Swordwind revision.  I think this Aspect troupe proposal is the thin edge of the wedge on many 'why shouldn't this army be able to get this...?' proposals, and it should be thrown out as inconsistent with Jervis's original vision. It's fine for scenarios, just don't put it in the tournament lists which are about restriction as much as choice.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:08 pm 
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I support this change with the caveat that the Swords of Vaul not be a variable choice.  I think that the Aspect Troupe will allow some flexibility in the smaller lists.  In larger lists it's effect will be that much more diminished and a non issue.

My reasoning: the Eldar got slammed (in a good way).  With so much taken from the list I am in full agreement with Sotec on this one that they needed something in return.  A 0-1 formation isn't going to mess with the list, and won't take away from the other Eldar lists (which might have the troupes as a staple formation).

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Dave
 Post subject: Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:26 pm 
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In a Craftworld full of aspect warriors I don't see how someone could argue that a small task force wouldn't have its place.

Exarchs would tasks their seconds with obtaining minor objectives and lend them a small force todo so.  I don't think its out of character to include the Troupes in the list.

That they're handy is the exact reason why they would be put into use in the first place.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:08 pm 
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Yeah special task forces and 'but it would make sense' justifications...

Sure I understand some eldar players would love their 4 strong teleporting hawks and other gimmicks added to the tournament list. But that is not what Jervis wanted for good reason.

Adding something 'because you downgraded everything else too much' is a terrible excuse. Instead make sure the downgrades are actually balanced.

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yme-loc
 Post subject: Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:30 am 
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Drop it - has no reason for being and makes no sense.

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Justiniel
 Post subject: Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:08 pm 
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Although I agree with Dave as to the reasons why in 'reality' these would be available I cannot agree with including them in a tournament list, extra 'cheap' activations being the primary reason coupled with the Eldar 'keep initiative' ability. As much as I like the idea that I could teleport 3 or 4 troupes of warp spiders around a formation.  :laugh:

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:11 pm 
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Justiniel, it is a 0-1 troupe per list, so that wouldn't work.  That is why I don't think it is a big deal.

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Justiniel
 Post subject: Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:17 pm 
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Ah, my apologies I misread that part of the text. I had thought it was 0-1 for each host rather than per list, mea culpa.

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Dave
 Post subject: Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:58 pm 
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Heh, 0-1 per Aspect Warhost would be overly cheesy :p.

Another "reality" based use for the formation would be an Autarchs personal body guard.




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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:32 pm 
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I'm for keeping the smaller Aspect Troupe for other Craftworlds. Let's keep Biel Tann distinctive from Ulthwe and Alatoic.

Also the more changes we make to the Eldar list the more that other players will want similar changes to the SM/IG/Ork lists.

Cheers

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Markconz
 Post subject: Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:37 pm 
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Hmm...

Well I don't feel like I can do anything with this except leave Sotec's proposal intact at this stage. 10-8 in favour of dumping just doesn't feel like enough of a mandate as much as I'd love to ditch it :D

Will leave it running for a bit while I work on other updates to the handbook and see if something clearer emerges one way or the other.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:11 pm 
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Why do people feel that the Aspect Troupe is "beardy/cheesy" for Biel-Tan, while every other Craftworld can do it?

Biel-Tan *is* the Aspect Warrior archtype, why wouldn't they use them in all possible manners?

I'd even prefer the 0-1 to be per Aspect Warhost as opposed to a blanket 0-1.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:05 pm 
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You've seen the votes and the comments.  Community almost 2-1 against at this stage.

I say it dies.

Last words and votes please.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:11 pm 
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(Markconz @ Aug. 20 2007,23:05)
QUOTE
Last words and votes please.

I'm just curious why people are so against it... every other Craftworld has a "special" Warhost or two, and the ability to take an Aspect Troupe, why should Biel-Tan be any different?

Personally, I'd like it a 0-1 per Aspect Warhost, instead of the basic 0-1.

How is the Troupe "beardy/cheesy"?

Yes, a list is defined by "what it doesn't have", I know, but what reason would there be for Biel-Tan, *THE* Aspect Warhost, not to have full access to multiple Aspect formations choices?

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Markconz
 Post subject: Biel Tan Aspect Troupe?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:38 pm 
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I think enough reasons have been stated above Chroma :)

One more based on the fluff for you...

Biel-Tan Swordwind is about the return of the mighty Eldar Empire and destiny. They are a warrior craftworld, an aspect craftworld, and they are full of pride and ambition.

Biel-Tan utterly and ruthlessly destroy their enemies with the overwhelming force of the warrior host. Sneaking around in penny packets of warriors would be conceding that they may not be as powerful or as destined for greatness as they might imagine themselves to be. In short it is simply beneath them - it would be a sign of weakness.

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