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Batrep : Saim Hann Vs 8.3 Nids
woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Batrep : Saim Hann Vs 8.3 Nids
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:46 am 
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Played a 3000pt battle between Saim Hann and Tyranids. ?Used the latest edition of the Alpha handbook for the rules, the latest Saim Hann list and the Tyranid list (version 8.3 with no amendments).
Foolishly forgot to bring along 2 jetbike stands & 2 Shining pear stands so had to use dice/proxies as stand in !

Saim Hann

Wild Rider Warhost + 3bikes/3Vypers + Chieftan + Farseer
Wild Rider Warhost + 3bikes/3Vypers + Farseer
Shining Spear Warhost + Exarch

Striking Scorpions / Dire Avengers in wave serpents + Exarch
4 Falcons & Firestorm
5 Prisms
1 Scorpion SHGT
2 Vampire Hunters
Avatar

Tyranids

Synapse
Dominatrix (Hive Group)
3 Tyranid Warriors (Assault Group)
1 Hive Tyrant/2 Tyranid Warriors (Nexus Group)
1 Hive Tyrant/2 Tyranid Warriors (Nexus Group)

Common Broods
9 Gargoyles
32 Termagaunts
3 Hormagaunts
1 Ravener

Uncommon Broods
7 Biovores
3 Zoanthropes
3 Dactylis
3 Exocrine
1 Barbed Hierodule
1 Trygon

Independent
1 Hierophant
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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Batrep : Saim Hann Vs 8.3 Nids
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:51 am 
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Saim Hann Deployment


Tyranid Deployment


Turn 1 ?: ?Saim Hann win initiative.

Vampire Hunters start by sweeping over the battlefield to target the huge Hierophant on the Tyranid right flank. Despite 4 x MW2+ shots from the twin pulsars the huge beast only suffered a single wound.

In response the Dominatrix leads her Hive group towards the crystal fields on the same flank.
The Eldar aspects in their wave serpents land on one of the landing areas on the abandoned Imperial complex roof.
Despite the shelter provided by the building, the Aspect warriors are targeted by the Biovore/Exocrine Nexus group who succeed in killing 2 Striking Scorpion stands and placing 4 blast markers on the fragile but hard hitting unit.

The Windrider clan 2 (no chieftan) land on another complex roof landing areas.
In a similar response the Dactylis Nexus group shoot up the newly arriving jetbikes and with some atrocious saves (3 x 1s), 4 blast markers are placed on this windrider clan.
The Chieftans Windrider clan 1 moves up alongside the complex.
The Tyranid assault group marches up to take the objective in the jungle in the SH half of the table. In response the Falcons double and target this advanced unit but thanks to the cover in the jungle only manage to kill a single Termagant unit.
The Hierophant moves up to support the Dominatrix?s Hive group, Unfortunately for the Hive Mind, the large creature is targeted by the Fire Prisms who double (move/shoot/move), inflicting 2W on the Hierophant, roll up a critical and kill off the creature. Out of activations, the Hive Mind can only watch as the Scorpion SHGT doubles (move/shoot/move) and kills the Trygon bodyguarding the Dominatrix.
The Dominatrix inflicts 1W on a Vampire Hunter as the planes exit the table.

The Tyranids spawn back all their dead.
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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Batrep : Saim Hann Vs 8.3 Nids
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:54 am 
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Turn 2 ?: ?Avatar summoned to threaten Assault group in the jungle. But Tyranids win the initiative.

Rather than assault the exposed Avatar with the Assault group, the Hive Mind decided (in hindsight perhaps wrongly) to sustain fire at the Eldar god with the Dactylis Nexus group. This only succeeded in placing a single BM but caused no wounds.
In response the Falcons doubled up around the back of the jungle (move/move/shoot) to target the exposed Tyranid models outside the jungle killing 3 lesser griblies and placing 4BM on the Assault group.
Retaining the initiative the Farseer leading the Windrider clan 2 orders an assault on the Assault group in the jungle and commands the Avatar to join in (with of course, supporting fire from the newly arrived Falcons). ?

This combined assault won the combat forcing the battered Assault group (just 3 Termagants and three Tyranid warriors left) to become instinctive.
On the other flank, the Dominatrixs Hive group advances over the hill to shoot up the Scorpion SHGT causing one wound and placing 2 BMs on the Eldar tank.
The Prisms once again do the business moving and shooting the barbed Hierodule in the hive group. They cause 2W`s but rolling another critical they manage to kill another of the big creatures.
The Biovore/Exocrine Nexus group advance towards the complex and shoot the Aspect troupe again, killing another two of the elite Eldar and break the unit.
The damaged Scorpion doubles (move/shoot/move) to try and kill the Trygon (again!) but misses twice.
The instinctive Assault group holds and shoots at the exposed Falcons killing one of them.
The Shining Spears and Windrider clan 1 move up to surround the Dominatrixs Hive group on the hill.

The Hunters fail to activate and ready themselves for turn 3.

The Tyranids spawn back all the small griblies that had been killed.
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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Batrep : Saim Hann Vs 8.3 Nids
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:57 am 
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Turn 3 ?: ?Saim Hann win initiative.

Continuing their ?man of the match? performance the Prisms move up to Hive group and pour fire into the Dominatrix. This causes 2W and yet again I rolled up a 6 for a critical and even more amazingly rolled another 6 for effect meaning it lost Supreme Commander and Synapse. The rules don`t say what happens to the Dom now (but we played it as it became independent so it could still take part in the game after this turn as it looked like hive group was toast without a synapse creature.) ?
Retaining the initiative the Windrider clan 1 assaulted the hive group, ordering the Shining Spears in too (and with the Prisms in support). ?The Hive group is slaughtered with all the wee griblies dead and the Trygon died as well as it is now out of synapse range (Dominatrix no longer synapse) despite being Fearless. This doesn`t seem right!! ?The Dominatrix now being independent (is this right) and Fearless staggers of towards an objective.

The respawned Assault group on the other flank finally initiates the first assault of the game by the Tyranids and wipes out the Falcons.
The Vampire Hunters go Dominatrix hunting but cause no wounds.
The Scorpion SGHT retains (thanks to SC reroll) and its macro weapon kills a Hive Tyrant from the Biovore/Exocrine Nexus group. This Nexus group tries to retaliate
but fails to activate (no SC any more) and just moves into a better position.

Windrider 2 clan moves to contest jungle objective.
The Hive Mind thinking about goals marches the Dactylis Nexus group into the SH half of the table. Dominatrix moves to hold objective.

Dominatrix regenerates 1W. ?Aspects rally and Tyranid spawn reinforcements.
Score 0 ? 0.
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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Batrep : Saim Hann Vs 8.3 Nids
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:00 pm 
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Turn 4 ?: ?Tyranids win initiative.

The assault group assaults the windrider clan 2 in a fight for the jungle objective. With poor combat dice rolls compounded by a double 2 on the resolution dice the assault group is wiped out (apart from the fearless Tyranid warriors).
The Vampire Hunters arrive again (thanks to SC reroll) but one of them is shot down by the Dominatrixs AA fire and yet again cause no wounds. The Dominatrix fails to activate. ?
The Shining Spears assault the Biovore/Exocrine Nexus group and despite being 2 down once modifiers were taken into account, roll double 6 to the Tyranids double 2 (again) for resolution making the group instinctive.

The instinctive Biovore/Exocrine group now try to Hold ? fail ? so Hold ?? and shoot the Shining Spears, wiping out the Eldar unit that had just bested them in combat. !!!
The Prisms continue their fine work and shoot the Dominatrix and cause 3W on the huge beast. ?The Dactylis unit moves to cover objectives. The Aspects fail to activate and the Windrider clan 2 moves to cover objectives as well.

Final Score ?Saim Hann 2 ( Blitzkrieg & Take & Hold) V 0 Tyranids

Final Thoughts

This was a close game that went the way of the Eldar due to the 4 criticals (plus additional 6 for the Dominatrix critical effect) rolled up by the Saim Hann which killed the Hierophant and the Hierodule and robbed the Dominatrix of SC & synapse ability. That and two very poor Tyranid assault combat resolution dice rolls sent the Hive Mind to its doom.
Tactically the Tyranids did not manage to initiate many assaults on their own merits and the Eldar were able to gang up on exposed Tyranid units (Falcons, Windrider host 2 & Avatar against Tyranid Assault group and Prisms, Windrider host 1 and Shining Spears against Tyranid Hive group)
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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Batrep : Saim Hann Vs 8.3 Nids
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:02 pm 
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Army List Comments

Saim Hann

The original rule for Saim Hann dictating that objectives should be placed in the open is no longer present and we all thought this was still fair. We feel it should remain out of the list.

Because the Saim Hann guardians all ride jetbikes, there is no need for Vampire Raiders so we all agree this original reason for the creation of Vampire Hunters is still valid. In this game however these flyers were crap ? caused 1 wound all game.  The 2 x MW2+ on each seems powerful but they are always likely to miss 1 or 2 turns of a game due to aircraft BM accumulation. And they are very expensive. I wanted to try them out but I normally don`t use them.

We felt as the Shining Spear Warhost is a fully tooled up 8 unit squad it should be able to be upgraded with 2 Exarchs as is the option in the Biel Tan list for 8 unit Aspect Squads.

The cost of the 6 jetbike upgrade on the windrider host should go back up to full price (150pts for 6) as jetbikes, despite the armour drop, are still effective.

The reduced strategy rating of 3 worked really well with the initiative going back and forth and we feel this represents the savage (if less coordinated) feel of Saim Hann really well.

Despite pushing for the inclusion of the Supreme Commander after the last battle, the Chieftan seemed to make the Saim Hann a bit too effective with only 1 failed activation all game (his reroll allowed me to pass 2 other failed ones).  Perhaps to make it harder to coordinate these quick jetbike assaults, lose the SC option from the Chieftan (and therefore make him cheaper).

Tyranids

1) The first thing we felt was that 2 pages of special rules is way too much.  It is also quite difficult to follow (even though there were 3 experienced Epic players trying to establish what happened in different circumstances).

2) We all felt the Swarm composition rules were easy to understand and worked well. Synapse (15) or (30) etc seemed a straightforward rule and in most cases it was easy to see at a glance that whether swarms are within these set limits.

3) Similarly the spawning at the end phase seemed logical and straightforward as a rule. However because we were new to these rules we kept having to refer to the tables of D3 or 2D3 etc and then look for the distance of enemy troops to work out the dice roll. And this was for each swarm. It slowed down the game although the more we play the quicker it would get, it would have been nice to simply count the synapse creatures in the swarm and get somehow a spawning roll from this.

4) The biggest issue arose from the instinctive / relentless rules.  They didn`t seem intuitive to us at all. Trying to activate an instinctive swarm to Hold (their only option) and failing means they only get to Hold anyway (is this right?) which seems bizarre. The fact that you accumulate BMs but aren`t broken again seems counter intuitive to the game. You want to treat them as broken but forget they can support , fire etc.
Plus Fearless broods are removed after an assault if outwith synapse range which also seems ?strange?.

One thought we had was to treat all Tyranids as normal, accumulating BMs as normal and being broken as normal (representing Hive Mind temporarily losing control) but

-  Tyranids auto rally and remove all BMs in end  phase   (Hive Mind back in control)
-  All common broods are Disposable (seems a suitable Tyranid effect)

Not thought it through much for potential problems but would be a much simpler rule to understand and more intuitive to the normal game mechanics.

5)  Do we need the other special rules as well ?
You could give the Dominatrix & vituperator different weapons that would negate the need for the flame template rule.
You could give Tyranids a 1+ activation so you don`t need the voracious rule (or Synapse groups a 1+ and independant creatures a 2+)
You could make the big griblies a bit tougher so you don`t need regeneration either.
We are not saying we should remove them all but it is something to consider to get the amount of special rules down.

5) Other thoughts :  What happens to the Dominatrix if he loses synapse ? were we right to treat it as independent ?
The Dominatrix flame template at MW5+ seems overly powerful.
Should Lictors be able to claim objectives ?
The Tyranid player didn`t rate the meiotic spore sacks.
The Zoanthrope in 40K has a powerful ranged attack. We appreciate it has a MW FF attack but should its ranged weapon not have some AT capability as well ?
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Markconz
 Post subject: Batrep : Saim Hann Vs 8.3 Nids
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:23 pm 
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Great report Dave, thanks!

I broadly agree with your concerns about length, confusion and counter-intuitive nature of the tyranid special rules. Ok once you know them, but they certainly throw new players (and even veterans of the tyranid development like myself!). Cutting them down and rewriting them so they are not so weird (eg that one you mentioned with instinctive where 'if I pass I can hold, but if I fail I can hold too - huh?' This should specifically mention that you get to retain if you pass but not if you fail,  and other areas could do with more work too).

I also agree that all the different numbers you have to consult for things has started to become bit of a nightmare in terms of brood amounts, synapse amounts, spawn amounts. All these seem like the sort of thing Jervis would have taken a very big knife too, and I think we probably should too.

On the other hand, in general the list seems to be balanced much better with the addition of the instinctive rule.

Will comment in more detail on specifics later.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Batrep : Saim Hann Vs 8.3 Nids
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:44 pm 
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(Hena @ Sep. 02 2007,11:33)
QUOTE
a) The Flame template rules are also part of AMTL and should be part of Chaos. So it's not a Tyranid specific rule. All in all I'd like to see it move into rulebook proper. This would allow it to be remove from all lists :).

Yes it would make sense... where and how?

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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Batrep : Saim Hann Vs 8.3 Nids
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:58 pm 
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Thanks Hena,

1) Thing is the changes don`t seem minimal and often seem counter intuitive to the "normal rules" Still think that treating all Tyranids as normal, accumulating BMs as normal and being broken as normal (representing Hive Mind temporarily losing control) but

Tyranids auto rally and remove all BMs in end phase (Hive Mind back in control)
All common broods are Disposable (seems a suitable Tyranid effect)

would be much simpler and in more in tune with "normal rules) mechanics. Although I must admit I haven`t really thought it through that much for potential problems.

3) Might be good to make them easily remebered multiples Tyrant twice Warriors, Greater node double lesser node etc.

4) Seems clunky just to check if they can retain.

5) Agree the template should be in rulebook weapon special rules if it covers more than one army. Had we all realised how powerful the template was I would never have moved up my windrider host & shining spears into range. The Dominatrix could have sustained. ?And even after combat was resolved and the big beastie was instinctive he could have stayed and breathed on a hold action on a 5+. ?In fairness our gaming group in general are concerned with any template MW attack.
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Charad
 Post subject: Batrep : Saim Hann Vs 8.3 Nids
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:57 pm 
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Thanks for the report, it was very entertaining. :D

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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Batrep : Saim Hann Vs 8.3 Nids
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:14 pm 
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1. Heh, I meant that the rule changes were minimal as far as the current Tyranid rules go . Disposable has one problem as that means that common brood swarm that engages automatically negates enemy hits. If grots are annoying, then try something that has only grots, but capable of hitting like Orks. But was it more understandable as far as the text went?


The Disposable rule as written by Marconz in the Alpha Handbook says that unless stated the units do count as assault casualties.
This would mean we would shoot up the Tyranid swarms as they advance killing loads of common broods but no BMs (and of course they would respawn these again in the end phase) but in combat it would still be possible to win assaults against the Nids as the common broods would count as assault casualties.

I think this might represent in an abstract and simple way the tide of Tyranids quite well.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Batrep : Saim Hann Vs 8.3 Nids
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:41 pm 
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Thanks for the batrep woodelf_dave!  Looks like it was a very enjoyable game!

I'll comment more, but I just got back from a 7 hour drive after a late night wedding yesterday, so I need to rest... and regenerate.

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Irondeath
 Post subject: Batrep : Saim Hann Vs 8.3 Nids
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:22 am 
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Great report, very insightful comments.

Keep it up!

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