I don't think the Eldar as a whole need any more boosts, just the Banshees, who are still somewhat lacking.

Has anyone done any playing with any of these variations yet?

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Sorry Chroma, I don't mean to seem pedantic but that doesn't make sense to me.

If a unit within a list recieves a power boost, how does that not also give a (however small) power boost to the army containing that unit?

Because, even with a boost, no one will use Banshees... *LAUGH*

It's more a matter of degrees or "tiers" of effect, a slight change on a single unit doesn't radically change an army, so I don't see it as significant as "army wide" changes/boosts.

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I have to wonder what the point is then?

If these changes will not make people use Banshees, why bother?

It's a matter of internal balance vs external balance. Externally eldar don't need a boost, but internally noone will ever use banshess.

Externally space marines are balanced, but internally the ground pounders need a boost. It's the same thing.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I was kidding.

Changes won't "make" people use Banshees, but at least they'll be a slightly better, but still not great, alternative to, essentially, never taking them.

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A lot of the suggestions include adding MW to the Banshee CC attack.  I would have said that is more than a *slight* boost.

All of those suggestions have also suggested reducing the CC value of the Banshees to compensate. And most people have said they still wouldn't take banshees anyway...

The whole point of this thread is to make banshees viable without increasing the overall power of the aspect warrior formation.

Making banshees slightly better doesn't make eldar better as a whole unless it makes the aspect warrior formation better overall than it currently is. None of the suggestions so far make banshees a no-brainer choice.

The change from CC3+ to CC2+ for example didn't make eldar any better at all, because banshees remained a worse choice than scorpions. 8xbanshees with CC2+ is still worse than 8xscorpoions, so the overall power of the list is not affected.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

All of those suggestions have also suggested reducing the CC value of the Banshees to compensate. And most people have said they still wouldn't take banshees anyway...

When i can get a game in, i'll be trying the following 4000 pt list:

Gate
Aspect warhost: 2 x Scorpions, 4 x Dire Avengers, 2 x Fire Dragons inc exarch and Autarch + Wave serpents.
Aspect Warhost: 4 x Banshees, 4 x Fire dragons inc 2 x Exarchs (Vampire)
Aspect Warhost: 8 x Swooping hawks inc 2 x Exarchs (Teleport)
Guardian Warhost inc 3 x heavy weapons + 3 x Support weapons
Falcons inc 2 x firestorms
Falcons inc 2 x firestorms
Void spinner
Storm serpent
Windrider host: 6 x Jetbikes,
Phantom titan,
Vampire,
Nightwings

I will be testing Banshees at CC4+ MWFS, with no other changes.  If this proves too much i will then test CC 4+ FS Lance.

I really don't think Banshee's sv should be increased.  Eldar have always been a glass hammer, represented by immense hitting power, quick movemet and low saves.  The trick to getting Banshees to work IMO is to pick your targets well and stack the odds so you are able to kill as many enemy as possible before they can strike back.  In this list i'll be using the Banshees and dragons to hunt down elite enemy units before they can cause me problems and hope to cause a hole into which the rest of the army can pour through the enemy lines.

So do the Banshees keep getting boosts until people do start taking Banshees?

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Please don't think your thoughts are being dismissed; indeed Stompzilla makes a similar point about killing characters. This is certainly a niche that  other Aspects do not occupy and so well worth exploring. The question being raised is just how to achieve this within the rules, and being faithfull to the 'fluff'.

Could you explain how you manage to get only the Banshees in contact with Characters in a Tactical squad with Rhinos or a Black Legion retinue. Bearing in mind that you have to contact the first unit whose ZoC you enter, it seems impossible to do so without having other Aspects contact at least some other enemy units. If that happens, because the opposing player allocates the hits, it is usual for characters to get allocated last, thus defeating this tactic.  

I am suggesting adding Infiltrate and possibly increasing the movement, allowing the Banshees to ignore enemy ZoC to facilitate your tactic, possibly with an armour increase to boost their survivability. If this works (as we agree it should) then we can renew the debate on the CC statistics.

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My worry is that minor boosts (like the CC3 to CC2) didn't make enough difference to persaude people.  So then it seems like it would take a more significant boost to do that, and then I worry that it will be a step too far.

Look at it this way. An Aspect Warhost costs 300 points, and by-and-large whichever aspects you choose, the formation is worth about 300 points. Some combos are certainly better than others, but they should all be in that ballpark. But a formation including Banshees is worth less than one containing any other aspect, ergo bringing the power level of the banshees to the point where either alone or in combination they are worth around 300 points. Overall, the power level of the army won't change - aspect warhosts will still be worth about 300 points - but you would see more Banshees making up the warhosts.


It may be a significant boost to the Banshees but remember that they're competing for space in the Warhost with Fire Dragons which have a 4+MW Firefight attack plus a shooting attack. Firefights are arguably far more useful than close combat attacks (since they can support) and the shooting attack is extremely useful (since the formation can move into 15cm range, shoot and be in position to support another formation in assault.

Personally, I'd say 1x4+ MW FS for close combat would put them just about level pegging with the Fire Dragons. The First Strike offsets the shooting attack and the general usefulness of the firefight MW that the Fire Dragons have. At the same time, I would say the general utility of the fire dragons wouldn't put them out of buisness entirely.

In terms of balancing the Aspects, I still feel this is the best choice. It gives them a unique niche and the first strike makes them at least a plausible option distinct from fire dragons.

It would certainly require playtesting - First Strike Macro Weapons are a scary, scary prospect - and they might be a little too good. Certainly my Grey Knights would balk at 8 4+ MWFS attacks coming in - that'd be enough on an average roll to obliterate a whole power armour order and even my terminators would be hurting.

Incidentally, as for "it'd make them too good against tanks", compare the following average wounds expected against Leman Russ for 8 stands in base contact:

Banshees (2+) 1.7 dead
Banshees (4+MW) 2 dead
Scorpions (2x4+) 2 dead

So Banshees really wouldn't be better at killing tanks than Fire Dragons or Striking Scorpions - they just have the First Strike as their "edge". Scorpions of course are vastly better at killing hordes and Fire Dragons can support fire with MW and shoot MW.

Attack a formation that is small enough that it can't avoid alloacting hits to the character.

(Perhaps I have been doing this wrong.  CC hits are allocated Each player allocates the hits and make saving throws in the same manner as they would when allocating hits from shooting.