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Howling Banshees

Charad

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:29 am

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Exarch upg should have FS too.

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Ginger

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:51 am

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(nealhunt @ Feb. 12 2008,22:18)

QUOTE

There's no way to really break out "good v infantry" from "good v armour" in assault attacks. ?Good at one means good at the other.

Neal, I would beg to differ that in this particular case, I believe there is a way to differentiate between their attacks against infantry and armour.

To make Banshees more effective against armour, we can use FS and EA+1 to cause two separate attacks, using a combination of other factors to make it more likely that their second 'normal' attack is FF. By reducing the FF capability to FF6+, this will make them less efficient against infantry/horde targets. But, as the resilience of the target increases, it becomes more likely that the second attack will use CC as well, thus making them relatively more effective against armour. Here we should use CC4+ EA+1, FS possibly with MW/Sniper on the 'normal' weapon.

To make Banshees more effective against infantry than armour, I think you have to go with a single FS attack with Ignore Cover. Here the only real differentiator would be their ability to winkle infantry out of cover, as the straight stats obviously remain the same. So, here we should use CC2+, FS, and IC

Assault resolution looks about the same with either CC2+ or 4+/EA. ?Based on that, I'd go with the simpler CC2+. ?But each still looks a bit weaker than Scorpions. ?Given that the weaker armour will make them worse in FF as well, I'm not sure either option is enough of a bump.

Hmm... ?

As I said earlier, IMHO the armour should increase to 4+ to bring it in line with the other CC Aspects and races. As to their attacks being a bit weaker than Scorpions, this is remedied in part by changing their impact on the target (MW/sniper/IC). However, at present I would prefer to clear up what we expect them to be good at and work from there.

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Soren

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:09 pm

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IF we argument with fluff at the attack value, we HAVE TO argument with fluff at the armor value. Save has to be weaker than the save of scorpions. Thats a fact.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:37 pm

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Hmm... Assault resolution looks about the same with either CC2+ or 4+/EA. Based on that, I'd go with the simpler CC2+. But each still looks a bit weaker than Scorpions. Given that the weaker armor will make them worse in FF as well, I'm not sure either option is enough of a bump.

Biggles pointed out that there is a consistency in a unit that has 2+CC which may be enough to convince players to take them over Striking Scorpions which would hit with a greater degree of variance. Thoughts?

Want a sure-fire strike force that will take out a small enemy force on the side of the board? bring Banshees.

Want Aspects that have the potential to cut through lots o' troops and have staying power (i.e. 4+ armor)? bring Striking Scorpions.

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Ginger

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:36 pm

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From the SG boards:-Using Black Legion's suggestion, amended by Crabowl and using Neal's example for comparison of 6x Banshees Vs 6x Marines (or other units ) compared with 6x Scorpions

- They kill 4x Marines (or other infantry) with First Strike
- They kill 2x Tanks or AV
- Scorpions kill 3x Marines
- Scorpions kill 6x Infantry
- Scorpions kill 3x tanks or AV
- MW also makes them excellent at assaulting entrenched infantry (where Scorpions hit rate would be reduced to 3x kills in the example).

In short this gets my vote, despite my reservations about adding special rules in the notes, though I think I would prefer First Strike to be permanent not just against Infantry, so would make the stats look like:

Banshees

Well Done Black Legion / Crabowl[8D]

So in summary, we ?generally think that the Banshees still lacked some power and direction. What we generally seem to be saying is that they need to be a bit more specialist and their attack needs a boost. So we are coming to the view that:-

Banshees are fast, agile but lightly armed troops (the unearthly distorted screams from the Banshee masks temporarily stun enemy who are then dispatched by the rapier-like powerswords etc).
Although lethal against all forms of infantry armour, the delicate powersword cannot penetrate armoured vehicles
Compared to Scorpions who are armed with multiple anti-personell weapons, Banshees are better against armoured infantry, but worse against light or unarmoured infantry
They should be moderately effective against Terminators, but not be tank or Titan killers

Does that meet everyone's criteria?

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zombocom

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:48 pm

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I'm with Hena. Macro only against infantry is too cluttered.

If Macro was decided on (I'm still against it), then it should be Macro against everything.

I still think CC2+ is the simplest and best way of representing their deadliness.

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Ginger

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:55 pm

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@ Hena
From this I take it that you dislike the idea of adding the special note to the existing stats, and prefer either the CC2+ FS approach, or the CC4+ EA+1 FS mechanic.

So in your view, are Banshees anti-infantry specialists, or anti-armour specialists?

@ zombocom
I presume you think the weapon note too cluttered, fair comment, and I accept your thoughts about MW which I agree is too powerfull in it's normal form.

So, which kind of specialist troop do you think they are, and if anti-infantry, would CC2+ FS, IC be too powerfull?

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:24 pm

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I have to dissapoint you Hena. Banshees can't have grenades of any kind. The Banshee Mask is their equivalent of Frag/Plasma grenades...just better. And they can't have Krak-Grenades or even Melta-Bombs. So they are pretty useless against any kind of vehicle.

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Ginger

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:44 pm

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@BL Hena's point (echoed by others) is that we should be carefull to avoid a slavish devotion to matching W40K for many reasons, not least because they model different levels of detail. That said, I think your suggestion does merit consideration.

@Hena, I agree that there are issues with this proposal, as there are with all of them, a brief summary:-

CC4+ EA+1 FS
- complex to understand and hard to explain to newbies
- tends to do as well as scorpions against armour
But
- allows more flexibility for design
- provides greatest range of results statistically

CC2+ FS
- Most limited in statistical range which impacts the style of play
- Least diferentiated from other Aspects (though IC helps)
- Least representative of war-gear carried (albeit a cosmetic issue)
But
- Simplest to understand and explain to newbies

CC3+ with counts as MW vs INFANTRY note
- Uses special note to modify rules
- clutters up the stats sheet
But
- Best match to the Anti-Infantry specification
- least change of all
- most differentiated from other Aspects

As Dad would say, you pays your money and you makes your choice

Is it getting time for a straw poll guys??

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Soren

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:26 pm

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Please keep it simple, if we do not exactly match the 40k profile, good, we are no slaves of the 28mm game. We should decide the most playable variant, which is NOT the MW thingie. There are enough MW around and eldar for sure need none of them. make em CC2+, it?s a sure kill for almost any light infantry and MORE than enough to bring em in line, especially if the base also gets the Exarch or even the Autarch upgrade (which will also get CC2+)

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Magarch

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:32 pm

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Well, at the FERC (ERC for french speaking people, for people who don't know us), the Banshees have been modified to this ;

CC 4+
Weapons
Banshee Mask (close, assault weapons, First Strike)
Power weapon (close, assault weapon, Macro Weapon)

This make a close assault unit with two attacks, one with First Strike and the other with Macro-Weapon. CC 4+ was thought better suited to them with that modification.

For the 40k matter, I think that we should keep an eye on this game for inspiration but we shouldn't forget that the two game systems are completely different in mind. Trying to take too many details in account is a mistake, I think. So I support Hena in his point of view.

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Chroma

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:36 pm

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(Magarch @ Feb. 14 2008,13:32)

QUOTE

This make a close assault unit with two attacks, one with First Strike and the other with Macro-Weapon. CC 4+ was thought better suited to them with that modification.

How has this been received and does the choice of Striking Scorpions change when these Banshee stats are used?

As you've written it above, there's not actually an "extra attack" granted... just a single MW first strike attack. I'm trying to parse out how to have both items there without them granting effects to each other.

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Magarch

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:44 pm

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How has this been received and does the choice of Striking Scorpions change when these Banshee stats are used?.

Well, people get used to the change quite easily, in fact. It doesn't really change the roles. Scorpions are more resilient and better suited when you don't really know what will be their target. Banshees are more specialized and are a bit better against armored units, but their weak armor still plays against them.

In a few words, Scorpions are still more polyvalent while Banshees are more specialized. Mixing them in a formation is interesting enough.

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