Hi Markconz,

Thanks for the effort with the report mate and sorry I haven't replied sooner, I've been getting over the CanCon weekend here in Australia.

Sorry the report didn't go to well for you, although you did short change yourself some points there.

Titan armies that are out activated are always going to suffer, especially against the list you played that would have had a field day setting up plenty of crossfire.

Couple of things i'm really leaning towards play testing is to bring them points back into line with what they used to be, maintain the restrictions on singular rev formations and after discussions with Greg (PFE100) and Mic Fair, along with a bunch of people at the Cancon event for Epic some changes to titans that would have their stats altered from the BT4.2 / other eldar lists. Remembering, this is in an effort to balance this list, although I'd love to see something similar eventually roll over to the BT list.
I can't stress enough this is just playtest ideas, not changes i'm pushing on anyone in anyway, The sort of shit that needs data recorded and shared if you're on bored and likewise, evidence against it in the same form.


I'd like to hear your thoughts on these proposed play test changes.

I'll start my saying I will maintain the stance that justifying 3+ because that was how GW intended it to be all those years ago, is unfathomable and holds no real validity, in my opinion, considering this is a community dedicated to the progression and balancing of NetEA

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I agree that something needs to be done with the holofield Fudd.
Another idea is to bring it line with how the Knight titan shield works, making the holofield having to save for each DC of TK damage instead of one save for the whole lot.

I agree that the eldar Holofield is worth testing, and what better place than the home of the Holofield. Any considerations if crossfire would still effect holofields?

Cheers

Mic

For a change to Holofields and the titan armour to get approved we would expect to see a lot of battle reports showing the problem and how the change would affect this. Any change like this would affect the other Eldar lists.

(Just warning you)

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I'd like to see it affect all lists. Holofield is one of the most broken things in this game

Holofields haven't been an issue for 12 years and suddenly they are?! I agree with Tiny Tim, would take a tonne of evidence to change. Idea doesn't really seem like a starter to me.

It wasn't Holofields that gave me headaches fighting against this list (or eldar generally), but single revenants everywhere and some overpowered weapon options. That's taken care of in the present list, but points costings are now too high, and some weapon options don't really seem worthwhile (nor have Phantoms seemed as good an option as either Revenants or the Warlock, esp if taken without fists).

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Haha, by "back yard" you mean the largest and most active meeting Epic community in Australia, as well as the the country with the biggest tournaments

I still put forward the idea of bringing it line with how the Knight titan shield works, making the holofield having to save for each DC of TK damage instead of one save for the whole lot.
I don't have an eldar army yet (A few titans may be lounging in the detol bath) but would push for this change and playtest against it.

Do you guys play that crossfire reduces holofield saves? That makes a huge difference. Also, I think someone said revenants are 5+ ra. They're just 5+ so they get the holofield and that's it.

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Holofields have been fine for a long time, they don't make eldar titans significantly more resilient than imperial equivalents (on average it would take 9 AT hits to destroy a revenant titan, and 8.75 to destroy a fully shielded warhound)

nobody complained (or at least barely anybody complained ) until the eldar titan list started spamming holofields everywhere, surely this is a strong indication that holofields are overpowered within the context of this list, not more generally where there are stronger limits on them in the other eldar lists?

to make a change which would ripple back through all of the other approved and extensively played and tested eldar lists is not a good idea as they would have to be rebalanced to reflect it

this is the issue we have in NetEA by limiting statlines of weapons and equipment and saying they have to be the same across all lists.... I'd be all for dropping the holofield save to 4+ or something else within the Fir Iolarian list only but that's not what's being suggested here, we're in a situation of the tail wagging the dog

just as an example, EUK have done this where the titan weapons in the EUK AMTL list are more powerful than the same weapons in other lists and the sky hasn't fallen down yet....

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Thanks for the replies guys,

Again just need to make it clear, the ideas i'm chasing are purely for this Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan.

My motives for the changes to holofields within the list, I can understand may seem irrational as there's not much context you can see, wherever you may be in the world.
But I'm basing this on facts that keep presenting themselves here on the east coast of Australia, we've fast become one of the biggest communities of epic gamers and tournament players that seems to be growing by the day.
Our tournaments are highly competitive, with guys that have transferred from other competitive tournament scenes all playing at that "elite" level for lack of a better way to put it.
One thing that keeps rearing its head is the Eldar holofield. I feel in this an army that already gets special rules like move shoot move, triple retain, hit and run, a free avatar and is almost entirely going to be made up of holofields, just feels like an impossible task to balance and justify it by saying, well heck they've got less activations, so we're sweet right?

Crossfire seems like something that really shouldn't happen all that often if you're using the list properly, abusing Move, shoot, move and not over committing or charging up the field. Crossfires can be difficult to set up against a good player and should benefit anyone that manages to do so.

For some reason I feel the need to say it again, I'm talking about this list moving forward. I'm not trying to change BT or any other approved list, regardless of what thoughts and opinions i've shared of such lists, I realise i'm not going to have some magical flow on effect from changes made via this list.

So currently, I'm liking several play test options for the titan clan, either changing holofields from 3+ to 4+ or, leaving them at 3+ and as Mard has suggested, perhaps for TK, they fall in line with how the Knights shields currently work, needing to save each hit of TK.
for instance, a deathstrike hits and wounds a phantom, rather than waiting for the eldar player to shrug it off on a 3+, the player using the deathstrike, rolls his "d6 hits" scoring 4 for arguments sake, the eldar player then is required to roll 3+ for each hit.

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The alternative might be simply limiting the number of units and fire/assault power of those units. The UK amtl successfully covers for the crazy firepower, all fearless, all reinforced armour plus void shields by seriously restricting the number of activations. This means that if you can kill just 1 or 2 models you've got a real chance.

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The problem here Greg is that testing the Eldar titan list in it's current 3+ save is just not fun, so no one wants to play it currently and waste the time getting smashed about by good and experienced players who are handed a giant beatstick for about 2 hrs, let alone write about it.
In it's current state, even with a smaller activation count. A titan legion with all the tricks and whistles Eldar have, just sucks to play against. And that is the struggle you have getting us to write any reports about Eldar titans before changes are made, because we already know what it can currenlty do and it's terrible.

In my opinion this army is going to be one of the hardest to balance in all of NetEA if we have to stick with the same stats across all Eldar lists.