The problem with this is the application of hits. Hits are pooled, so there's no way to make sure that the MW hits end up hitting infantry rather than vehicles. It'd require a well-explained special rule, and that's something the list really doesn't need.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Well, you could declare and pool anti-infantry hits and apply accordingly (and it could be worth testing this), but I agree that there is great potential for confusion. Furthermore, while this fine distinction is designed to focus the power of the unit, IMHO it is still only part of the problem. Mobility and resilience also need to be reviewed and possibly corrected

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The problem as i see it is the relative speeds and uses for each unit.

Warp spiders have an engage range of 45 cm - which is why they are so useful.  So after being delivered into assault by Vampire/storm serpent they can then linger out of sight ready to pounce on anything else that comes close in subsequent turns.  By attaching Banshees to them, they lose all this functionality.

Banshees benefit from having spiders attached, however spiders are better off without them IMO.

The reason i pool them with Dire avengers/scorpions and fire dragons is that they have the same movement and transport options.

My favourite aspect combination is:

2 x Scorpions, 4 x Dire avengers, 2x Firedragons all in wave serpents, so the enemy hits fall on the scorpions and wave serpents first who have better armour.  Banshees achieve a similar effect by reducing the no of incoming hits to the fm as a whole with their first strike attacks, sadly though it usually means the Banshees will be the ones to cop for it first.  The problem is that the Banshees effectiveness depends on the quality of the opponent wheras scorpions are (Nearly) always the same effectiveness.

E.g. against guard, killing 2 stands with FS will not really effect the amount of incoming fire, as it's low quality high quantity.  Wheras if they kill 2 stands of terminators it makes a huge difference.  And that's the role i think Banshees should fill - able to take out elite infantry before they get to swing.  The more i ponder it, the more i like 4+ FSMW and would probably team them up with Fire dragons to be used to hunt down my opponent's elite units and put the hurt on.

You allocate hits as usual. But hits on Infantry automatically transform to Macro-weapon hits.
And as per rules you save individually for each unit.
Not really confusing. But then it could easily be FAQed.

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i have to agree with the others im a pure aspect host player.

2nd.   this thread seems to have entered a loop where as lets specail rule it..   no no   no more special rules/  chatter chatter chatter...how about this/...   or that/...  ?   chatter chatter... hey lets do this with a specail rule.   no no no more special rules  how about this/...   or that/...  ?   chatter chatter... hey lets do this with a specail rule.   no no no more special rules   how about this/...   or that/...  ?   chatter chatter... hey lets do this with a specail rule.   no no no more special rules  how about this/...   or that/...  ?   chatter chatter... hey lets do this with a specail rule.   no no no more special rules  how about this/...   or that/...  ?   chatter chatter... hey lets do this with a specail rule.   no no no more special rules  how about this/...   or that/...  ?   chatter chatter... hey lets do this with a specail rule.   no no no more special rules  


lol but im sure this makes my point.  i know its fun to theroy craft but lets play test some of  the fine ideas put forth and see how it plays out and work of some factual information ?
not wanting to be a downer just seems this way to me

Cheers  

Tim NZ

That's all well and good if it's all banshees, but what if it's a mixed formation with warp spiders? Then not all the hits will be coming from banshees, so they can't all magically become MW.

It would need a fully explained special rule, and the eldar list has more than enough of those already.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

IMO there isn't really a problem.

If Banshees are slightly less useful than other aspects, so what?

Aspects are one of the better units in the game, and are part of one of the better armies in the game.  Doesn't seem like either Aspect Hosts/whatever or the Eldar are in need of a power boost.

Yes, the Banshees fill a fairly specialised niche, and are thus less generally optimal than other aspects.  But they do still fulfull their role of accurate first strike attacks.

When I play Eldar I use them because I have the models (and becuase I don't have enough Aspect models to pick and choose every one) and to be honest it doesn't seem to make any difference.  It certainly doesn't mean my aspect warriors perform any less well.  (FYI the formation is usually 2x Banshees, 2x Scorpions, 2x Dire Avengers, 2x Dark Reapers.  With Exarch(s)/Autarch in the Dark Reapers and typically mounted in Wave Serpents)

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet but I use them as character killers.  Using the first strike to try and deny my opponent those extra MW attacks that characters bring.  And you can't do that with any other aspect.

Yeah, i have to agree i'm not in favour of special rules just for 1 unit.

It should be a problem that can be sorted through the existing rules.

Although it does seem a bit cyclical, i feel we are making some progress.  What's needed is an agreement on what the Banshee's niche is and how to go about achieving that.

As i explained in my earlier post their role has always been to slice and dice elite infantry.

I feel that this can be best achieved with CC4+ FSMW.  Banshees shouldn't really be used to attack the faceless masses of guardsmen/ork boys but should be murder on Incubi, space marines, terminators etc.

How are you specifically killing characters without either Infiltrator or Sniper?

The opponent assigns the first strikes from your banshees.

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By attacking so that the (hopefully) 2 hits from first strike land on a character.  You can't specify that the hits are going to hit characters, but if they are in the correct place front to back then the hits can get them.

It is fairly easy to do against small formations, and clearly impossible where the character is in the middle of a large formation.

Highly unlikley as the counter charge should allow an opponent to cover the character with other bases and take the 2 hits IMO.

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You make some very good points here.
1) I agree that part of the issue is the mobility of these specialists. This is one of the reasons for looking at 20cm movement with Infiltrate.

2) Infiltrate (and possibly scout) also allows an element of 'assasination' allowing the banshees to get into B-B with characters to take them out first (by leaving the rest of the Aspects in FF).

3) CC4+ FS with MW (or CC2+) would be worth testing in this role. (This is still the hardest part to balance)

4) This role would leave theoretically leave the 'assasins' surrounded by enemy and the target of their retaliation, which is why I have always felt that 4+ armour to represent their agility was appropriate - but again something to be tested.

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Maybe give them a 10cm counter charge?

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- - - or a straight 30cm move which would also acheive this. But I suspect that infiltrate would be better.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

That can be accounted for with other tactics.

But I see there is little point trying to convince people that the Eldar don't need any more boosts.