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Howling Banshees

Ginger

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:36 am

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Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK

Dobsy, There are essentially two variations being considered:-
- one strong assault, First Strike possibly with MW or some such
- two weaker assaults with First strike on only one of them, again with some additional capabilities.

The other main issue is how to represent the Powersword that each Banshee is clutching. There are essentially four themes here
- Roll it up in the stats (the original and least favoured)
- use MW somewhere (considered by many as potentially overpowered)
- use Sniper (considered as potentially confusing/complex, especially to newbies)
- create some form of special rule because this is really an anti-armoured infantry weapon, and should not be as potent against tanks.

I would agree with you that we should take small steps, and have long argued for CC4+, with EA+1 FS on one weapon as I think CC3+ EA+1 FS is actually overpowered. I have even come to the conclusion that their FF should be reduced to FF 6+ so that FS hits that remove their CC opponents will also reduce their efficiency significantly.

Other questions have been raised on their mobility (should it be increased?) and their armour (increased??), and some of the answers do revolve around potential combinations. IMHO, leaving the speed as is makes them less easy to combine with WS because of the differentials that it will cause. Also, if the 2x weaker attacks are used, all the FS hits are more likely to remove CC opponents from the Banshees, making them much less efficient. Equally, leaving their armour at 5+ means they are far more likely to die to rearward enemy units or supports, so making people more carefull how they are used in the first place.

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Crabowl

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:02 pm

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Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:44 pm
Posts: 123
Location: Finland

Howling Banshees
Infantry 15cm 5+ 3+ 5+
Shuriken Pistols (15cm) Small Arms
Banshee Weapons (Base Contact) Assault Weapons, First Strike, Macro-Weapon
Notes: Banshee Weapons' First Strike and Macro-Weapon abilities work against infantry units only.

Doesn't make the unit any more special than any other unit with notes in its data sheet and doesn't affect the main rules in any way. Slices marines like butter (which is what they do in 40k no?). It's worse against vehicles than before but the mask is psychological effect so it seems kinda weird that it would affect vehicles.

I like BlackLegion's idea about MW that only works against infantry but it just felt slightly too powerful. Lowering CC to 4 or losing First Strike would be too big steps in the other direction so applying the infantry restriction on the First Strike makes the unit a heavy infantry specialist and hopefully keeps it from becoming the must have choice.

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zombocom

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:02 pm

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Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
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(Crabowl @ Feb. 12 2008,12:02)

QUOTE

Slices marines like butter (which is what they do in 40k no?).

No. They ignore the marine's armour save, but at S3 they only wound a third of the time. In total, on average, it will take two banshees assaulting to kill one marine.

There's no way S3 power weapons ever justify macro weapon status.

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Wisp

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:28 pm

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(zombocom @ Feb. 12 2008,13:02)

QUOTE

Power swords used to be strength 5 with a -3 armour save modifier back when 40k was still a game, not an exercise in cheesing out an army list and winning before the game even begins. So yes, they slice marines like butter.

If one wanted to emulate current 40k, howling banshees would need one cc 5+ titan killer attack, to simulate the fact that the power swords completely ignore even the heaviest (infantry) armour, but tend to stop as soon as they contact skin, since the eldar wielding the swords are too feeble to actually wound anything.

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zombocom

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:36 pm

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Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
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No.

Bear in mind that in epic armour saves are not just representative of armour, like in 40k. They also represent things like high toughness and multiple wounds.

Ogryns don't wear better armour than marines, yet they have a better armour save.

When you take this into consideration, ignoring armour in 40k is not on it's own enough to grant macro status.

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Lord Inquisitor

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:06 pm

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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
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Location: Norfolk VA USA

And you shouldn't rely too much on 40K rules, as we keep saying. They used to be S5 and pretty good at killing Ogryns. It is only the more recent editions which have simplified the rules to an abstracted "ignore armour saves".

Banshees carry power weapons. We have a profile for power weapons in Epic too.
Power weapons ignore armour saves in 40K. Macro weapons ignore armour saves in Epic.

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zombocom

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:32 pm

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Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
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Sorry, but no way.

I'm well aware of the 2nd ed rules for power weapons, and they STILL wouldn't classify as macro under the epic rules. Macro is for powerful weapons like melta guns and power fists, not eldar power swords.

There's simply no justification for banshees being awesome at killing tanks, fluff or rules.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:37 pm

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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
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Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA

Well, there is always 2+CC (performing CPR on a dead suggestion) which would allow all armor saves to be taken and would be the 'second best' solution according to LI.

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zombocom

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:42 pm

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I definately support CC2+. It represents the high power of their weapons and their fighting abilities without resorting to the inappropriate macro.

Plus, cc2+ first strike is actually pretty damn good.

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Lord Inquisitor

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:10 pm

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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
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Location: Norfolk VA USA

I'm really just going to have to leave this thread alone, aren't I?

Listen, MW doesn't make units better at killing tanks. It makes it better against any unit. CC2+ makes Banshees just as powerful against tanks as infantry!!

CC5+ with power weapons is only 3% more powerful than CC2+ against 4+ and 4+RA enemies. It is actually much less powerful against unarmoured targets. Overall, CC5+ and power weapons is probably less powerful than CC2+.

Why on earth is CC2+ acceptable when power weapons is not?? What do you mean giving them power weapons in their profile is "inappropriate"... they CARRY power weapons!

CC5+ and power weapons is almost exactly as good as the scorpion's CC4+(EA+1). Are THEY considered overpowered against high-armour targets?

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Mohawk

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:04 pm

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Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:04 am
Posts: 81

(Lord Inquisitor @ Feb. 12 2008,19:10)

QUOTE

Listen, MW doesn't make units better at killing tanks. It makes it better against any unit. CC2+ makes Banshees just as powerful against tanks as infantry!!

hmm..
MW = better vs any unit
CC2+ = just as powerful vs tanks as infantery
..isnt this the same?

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Moscovian

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:50 pm

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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA

Actually, MWs negate reinforced armor and ignore regular armor. Regular attacks allow both reinforced armor and regular armor saves. So MWs do hit/kill tanks better because -for the most part- vehicles and tanks have better armor saves. Terminators are the only infantry unit I can think of off hand that has reinforced armor so we're talking about a SINGLE unit type that is going to be out of sorts (in terms of targets).

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Soren

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:07 pm

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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:42 am
Posts: 694
Location: Austria

I would strongly suggest not to give Banshees MW attack. I have no problem with CC2+, as it clearly kills one weak unit and therefore is a good choice against non armored targets. With Exarch upgrade they get a really nasty attack for few points.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:18 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

There's no way to really break out "good v infantry" from "good v armor" in assault attacks. Good at one means good at the other.

===

Personally, I'd favor more offense - CC2+ or CC4+/+1EA are both simple.

CC2+ is just a +25% CC ability bump. Compared to Scorpions they do ~15% less damage, but it's FS which should come close to balancing out their vulnerability due to weaker armor.

The 4+/EA has less FS ability, but even if they kill someone in base contact with the EA/FS, they will still get their normal assault attack as FF. It's more damage caused, for slightly less FS capability and more vulnerability.

===

Just to compare...

6 Banshees v 6 SMs
3+CC - 2 SM kills, 1.33 Banshees killed
2+CC - 2.5 SM kills, 1.17 Banshees killed
4+/EA - 2.875 SM kills, 1.5 Banshees killed
v Scorpions - 3 SM kills, 1.5 Scorpions killed

6 Banshees v. 2 nobz/grots/boyz
3+CC - 2 Grotz killed, 1.67 Boyz killed, 1.8 Banshees killed
2+CC - 2 Grotz killed, 1.67 Boyz killed, .5 Nobz killed, 1.4 Banshees killed
4+/EA - 2 Grotz killed, .1.67 Boyz killed, .75 Nob killed, 2.17 Banshees killed
v Scorpions - 2 Grotz killed, 1.67 Boyz killed, 1 Nob killed, 2 Scorpions killed

Hmm... Assault resolution looks about the same with either CC2+ or 4+/EA. Based on that, I'd go with the simpler CC2+. But each still looks a bit weaker than Scorpions. Given that the weaker armor will make them worse in FF as well, I'm not sure either option is enough of a bump.

Hmm...

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Soren

Post subject: Howling Banshees

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:21 pm

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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:42 am
Posts: 694
Location: Austria

The Exarch upgrade is better used with CC2+ banshees than with Scorpions

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