[

While I'm not an expert in eldar or the history of what nerf was made for what reason, I specifically said minimal retaliation because in chroma's extension of the example, one or two stands of marines (assuming tactical marines) is going to likely result in a single hit, if that depending on the conditions of the assault. With at best one kill going against the rest of the modifiers it doesn't seem to greatly influence the outcome of the assault nor the utility of the aspect host after its resolution. Are they better? yes, but not to the extent I see them as minimizing the use of the other aspects.

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-Vaaish

So no interest in giving them a shooting attack and Jet Packs instead of Scouts and Jump Packs?

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Just hold your horses there   !

I don't think that anything in their background suggests that their FF or armour save needed a reduction, so why change those?  I thought the idea was just to change how the First Strike rule worked with this unit?  If this is too complicated to achieve, then it's probably better not to fiddle at all, and just concentrate on improving the Howling Banshees.

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Not all of us like to play using Clipping Assaults though Chroma, but I do see you point.

Well the Warp Spiders are already 'uncharacteristic' because "Infiltrator" means the Warp Spiders can move 30 cms (assaulting range 45cm). My proposal actually represents a  reduction of 5cm. While I agree that increasing the HB move to 20cm is 'uncharacteristic', it is not totally inappropriate, and is also present in the Tyranid list (and I don't recollect any complaints there).

However I am really unsure about removing First Strike. This effectively turns them into  slow Swooping Hawks with no other abilities. To my mind, First Strike is what distinguishes them. Unfortunately as others point out, this also makes them excellent at clipping.

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And I agree that we are trying to find a way to reduce the effect of the First Strike. This is achieved here through "Anti-Infantry" on the Death Spinner, making the Warp Spiders slightly worse against AV WE and Titans.

The reduction in armour values may not be necessary, but I saw that as a way of enhancing the weakness introduced through preventing them from using Wave Serpents and Falcons.

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Reducing the transport options seems by and large acceptable to the majority, but this has also restricted the other Aspects that can usefully be combined with the Warp Spiders.

Personally I agree with a number of your observations regarding the make-up of the Eldar in competition, and you neatly summarise why I have not used them recently. However others see them as slightly overpowered, and I would like to find ways of making the Warp Spiders more useable as well, hence the discussion.

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Spiders are great clippers as they have +2 for inspiring and should kill the 1-2 stands they hit for no loss, unless the target is bunched up, in which case void spinner it!

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Biel Tan is the only unit that can use Void spinners and alot of the other Craftworlds can only take one Exarch.

Double charge move is golden, thats a range 45cm FF attack!

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Perhaps it would be useful, in the light of there being some disagreement about whether change is needed here, to play test proposed alterations to the Howling Banshees first, and if these are deemed a success not bother to change the Warp Spiders at all?

Trying to alter the two units simultaneously seems to me, as a relative newcomer to this system of the rules, to be proving a bit divisive, so why not sort out the problem (i.e. Howling Banshees) first, and only deal with other possible issues (i.e. Warp Spiders) should the Howling Banshees still be deemed to be under-performing in terms of a relative comparison?

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There is no current efforts to change both units, this thread was created to remove the dilution of the Howling Banshee discussion with referals to Warp Spiders.

They do conflict, and there may be a need to address Warpies if the Banshees can't be sorted on their own, but, currently, there is no plan for more NetEA changes to Warp Spiders.

That said, discussion, analysis, and debate of Warp Spiders is strongly encouraged.

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Ok third attempt. Just a question: Can you see this posting?

A simple "No" or "This is faaaar to much change" to my proposal will be enough if no one wants to discuss it.
But no answer at all and i have to believe that my postings are simply overlooked or sometimes don't show up.  

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