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[NEW!] Ulthwé v3.3
Malakai
 Post subject: [NEW!] Ulthwé v3.3
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:53 pm 
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Quote: (illuvitar @ 03 Jan. 2009, 12:08 )

it's supposed to be a gaurdian heavy army not an ungainly horde of infantry. charad is right, that's orks. And as i said before i think it's currently much easier to field a playable 3000 pt. army with the bieltan list and just not take a great number of aspects.

Then use the Biel-Tan list for 3000pt games.

I think Chroma's Ulthwe army is very representative of the Craftworld. For the sake of argument though, what is it you would change to make it better? Reduce the number of units in a Guardian formation?

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Chroma
 Post subject: [NEW!] Ulthwé v3.3
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:24 pm 
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With the Biel-Tan list, two Guardian Warhosts gives you access to six Troupes.

With the Ulthwé list, three Guardian Warhosts gives you acces to six Troupes... three Guardian Warhosts doesn't really seem like a "horde" to me.

Neither of those includes any additional formations from the "support" section; with an option of six Troupes for both of those, I don't see how they would "tend to look the same" at 3000 points.

Do Biel-Tan armies with only two Guardian Warhosts and six Troupes tend to look the same?

And illuvitar, I completely understand your frustration with having completed an army under the 3-for-1 setup, but I can't really use that as a strong design directive... why do you think I haven't collected any Tau yet!  Who knows what that army will look like when it's done!  *laugh*  How many Guardian Warhosts do you have, illuvitar?

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [NEW!] Ulthwé v3.3
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:32 pm 
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Well I like to have multiple formations of the same type to have some variations. It would be boring to field the same army every battle :)

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Chroma
 Post subject: [NEW!] Ulthwé v3.3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:19 am 
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I think I've done this before, but here are two 3000 point Ulthwé armies using the current rules... I think they look quite different and would both play quite different and both would be effective choices:

Aspect “Heavyâ€Â

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illuvitar
 Post subject: [NEW!] Ulthwé v3.3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:31 am 
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How many Guardian Warhosts do you have, illuvitar?

6
I dont suggest you use my painted army as your design criteria, i suggest you use the original ulthwe list orginization.
as to wether or not you can make up different armies with the current list, of course you can, i just think the three troupe per limit is limiting enough and forces you to hve sufficient gaurdians to be "fluffy" enough.
Then use the Biel-Tan list for 3000pt games.
that is my intention, as to what i would do to make the list better, as i have said i would change the limit to 3 troupes per warhost.
another suggestion which i made previously would be to include an additional type of warhost formation. perhaps a smaller gaurdian mech infantry formation ? 1 farseer +4 gaurdians and 5 falcons, not as juicy a target as an overly upgraded blk gaurdian host but more shooty than a strait up gaurdian host.
couldn't we all get behind somthing like that?  :rock:  it would maintain the current ratio of gaurdians to aspects and make the list just a little more flexible. :cool:

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illuvitar
 Post subject: [NEW!] Ulthwé v3.3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:34 am 
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Oh, and let me just reiterate that i DO appreciate chromas work on the eldar lists and i am sorry if i come off overprotective of my favorite craftworld. I do NOT want the ulthwe list to be overpowered !

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Malakai
 Post subject: [NEW!] Ulthwé v3.3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:59 am 
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Quote: (illuvitar @ 04 Jan. 2009, 00:31 )

another suggestion which i made previously would be to include an additional type of warhost formation. perhaps a smaller gaurdian mech infantry formation ? 1 farseer +4 gaurdians and 5 falcons, not as juicy a target as an overly upgraded blk gaurdian host but more shooty than a strait up gaurdian host.
couldn't we all get behind somthing like that?  :rock:  it would maintain the current ratio of gaurdians to aspects and make the list just a little more flexible. :cool:

Sounds like a good idea. I can see an overtly militaristic Craftworld like Ulthwe adopting a mechanized infantry formation.

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dptdexys
 Post subject: [NEW!] Ulthwé v3.3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:27 pm 
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I like the limiting of 2 troupes per warhost it is limiting on army selection but it still helps towards reigning in what would be an easier to abuse list if it went up to 3 troupes per host.

As has already been stated Ulthwe have a big advantage not only with  Strategy rating of 5+ but they have more formations that activate on a 1+(Black Guardians).

They are also the only Eldar army (at a usual 3000 point game level)that when using the Farsight rule to triple activate could do so without having to roll a dice. Now that's powerful  :)

I do like the option of a smaller mech.guardian host,if not for this list then hopefully for other new lists.
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Charad
 Post subject: [NEW!] Ulthwé v3.3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:26 pm 
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Yeah, having three black guardian formations requires at least seven guardian formations total. So having auto triple retain doesn't come at cheap! :))

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Chroma
 Post subject: [NEW!] Ulthwé v3.3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:35 pm 
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Quote: (Charad @ 04 Jan. 2009, 15:26 )

Yeah, having three black guardian formations requires at least seven guardian formations total. So having auto triple retain doesn't come at cheap! :))

You could do it with Aspect, then Black Guardians, and then Warlock Titan as well...

Or two Blackies and a Titan... etc... etc... etc... *laugh*

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illuvitar
 Post subject: [NEW!] Ulthwé v3.3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:41 pm 
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I like the limiting of 2 troupes per warhost it is limiting on army selection but it still helps towards reigning in what would be an easier to abuse list if it went up to 3 troupes per host.

would someone care to explain how the three troupes makes the list abusive? i think thats a bunch of crap, the only legitimate reason ive heard for the limitation is fluff and making the list different from others. which i repeat i felt it already was.

 also im suggesting makeing it possible to take less gaurdians not more so the idea of the black gaurdians have a 1+ activation so we should limit other formations is just silly. the current 2 troupe per host limit makes it MORE likely ill have two black gaurdian hosts in my army not less so.

also if 5+ strategy is so abusive change THAT. i have no problem with balancing the list, i just want it to be more flexible so it can be used for a greater variaty of games, i dont see why thats so hard to understand.

(sorry if this post is angry, i now go to find my morning coffee  :laugh: )

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Charad
 Post subject: [NEW!] Ulthwé v3.3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:53 pm 
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Huoh... Chroma, you spank again the beaten. :)

About your lists:
-armour list doesn't have portals of any kind, so don't expect your guardians to live too long.

-you spend a huge amount of points to have those 3 mandatory guardian formations (and yes, three is the number in practical lists).

-when you have mandatory guardians, and required AA, there is around 800-1000pts left to make list different to each other, is that enough for you?

-But anyway, lists seem fine, but just not so different to each other.

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Charad
 Post subject: [NEW!] Ulthwé v3.3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:56 pm 
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also if 5+ strategy is so abusive change THAT. i have no problem with balancing the list, i just want it to be more flexible so it can be used for a greater variaty of games, i dont see why thats so hard to understand.


If you take SR5 from ulhtwe, what they have? Black guardians and lots of limitations compared to biel tan... That list is much harder to make work IMO.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [NEW!] Ulthwé v3.3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:02 pm 
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Quote: (Charad @ 04 Jan. 2009, 16:53 )

Huoh... Chroma, you spank again the beaten. :)

*LAUGH*

I don't even know what that means, but it made me laugh!

-armour list doesn't have portals of any kind, so don't expect your guardians to live too long.

Cover saves tend to keep my Guardians alive... they can stay near Eldar side objectives... and Guard!  *laugh*

-you spend a huge amount of points to have those 3 mandatory guardian formations (and yes, three is the number in practical lists).

-when you have mandatory guardians, and required AA, there is around 800-1000pts left to make list different to each other, is that enough for you?
You don't *have* to enhance the Guardian formations, I just like to supe them up when I use them; you only need to spend 450 points for three bare-boned Guardian Warhosts (you don't *have* to include a supreme commander, but you probably should), that leaves a lot of points for your other formations.

-But anyway, lists seem fine, but just not so different to each other.

Could you post one of your "usual" lists either using Biel-Tan as the base or Ulthwé just so I could get some insight in what you feel is lacking?  (Could you show me some of your lists as well, illuvitar?)

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