Changing the movement of these units would be uncharacteristic with the rest of Epic infantry.  That alone should give us reason to avoid this at all costs.  

Rug, the Warp Spiders are still the best choice, period.  It isn't broken but itis overpowered, and if people are talking about fixing the Banshees I think we're well off bring up the WSs too.  

Personally I think you could eliminate the the first strike entirely, give back their transport ability, and the unit would still be an amazing infiltrator force.  It would then allow the Banshees to stand alone as the only first strike aspects and, at a 2+, they rock.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

I agree with Zombocom, a small simple change is the best option.

Chroma did say my suggestion earlier in thread of moving the First Strike ability to just the weapon was a great idea and 4 others went on to agree with him, so I think that should be tried out (even if it does mean the Exarch has to lose the first strike on his attack, though I would prefer to see the Exarch profile entry adjusted to give the WS and FD Exarch the relevant ability).

What's wrong with discussion?  Some people have considered Warp Spiders to be, either a lot or a little, too good; this is the place to discuss that.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

You know that the Warpjump Generators of the Warp Spiders is very similar to Tau Jet Packs?

Warp Spiders
Movement Phase: 12"
Assault Phase: Assault 6" OR Move 2W6"

Jet Packs
Movement Phase: 6"
Assault Phase: Assault 6" OR Move 6"

And under my System the Death Spinner would be a 15cm AP5+/AT6+ weapon.

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Rug,

I have not seen the EUK data that you are referring to.  Where can it be accessed?

From my perspective, I see proposed lists, actual lists, and armies played, and they always contain Warp Spiders.  No doubt others have seen this and please post here if you disagree.  

It is apparent to me that they are an obvious choice at first glance and this even happens with new players.  Just a few weeks back my friend was looking at building an Eldar army and the first thing out of his mouth was, "Do you have any spare Warp Spiders?  Those things rock!"

I'll reference a post of mine from a separate thread:

Quote: 

Chroma, while you say people aren't taking the Banshees because everything else is a better choice, I say that mitigating one of those choices (namely the Spiders) will nudge people back to the Banshees.  

It all comes down to what you want:
Teleport?  Take Swooping Hawks.
Tank Killers?  Take Shining Spears.
Ranged weaponry?  Take Dark Reapers.
Macro?  Take Dragons.
Mass firefight?  Take Avengers.
Mass close combat?  Take Scorpions.
First Strike?  Take Banshees.
Infiltrate?  Take Spiders.

As of right now though, Spiders win it hands down.  Eliminating the first strike and giving them back their transport ability might be the best way to go.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Links to every list used at a 2009 UK tournament can be found by following the links on the various pages on this page - UK Tournaments 2009

Enjoy with one caveat. Not all players specify what is in their aspect formation in the submitted list. Having said that I don't recall seeing many lists with the 8 strong warp spider formation. Glyn's Britcon list may in fact be the only one.

By the way, I am not saying that my way is the only way, but I find it interesting that...



Solves all of the issues of A, B, C, D, F, and G listed below since they all center around transportation.  And in payment, they give up their first strike.  IMO the infiltrator part of their abilities easily represents the ability to surprise.  

And IIRC, one of the more popular solutions bantered around back in the day was the removal of first strike.  Just because we didn't go with that solution then doesn't mean it is the wrong solution, or that it wouldn't work to establish some internal balance between the aspects.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Coming into this as I'm collecting bits to build up an eldar army, I did a bunch of number crunching when I was putting together aspects and went away from the single type groupings outside of swooping hawks. For me, first strike just made them a good choice to pair with banshees, unless much has changed from swordwind on these guys, a full unit of 8 plus two exarchs will only net you 5 hits or 2.5 kills vs marines. Splitting this and taking half banshees with two banshee exarchs you get 5.96 hits or right about 3 kills vs marines before retaliation. Good but not exactly the most devastating aspect attack you can muster. Given they aren't stellar in CC, I don't even know why they have infiltrators on the since I don't seeing the double charge move or ignoring ZOC as any real benefit to something you don't want in CC.

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-Vaaish

You seem to be failing to appreciate the fantastic "clipping" ability the Warp Spiders grant you.

In your example only one or two Marine units would be in range to be assaulted, they'd die from the Warp Spider's first strike attack, and now, the Marines can do nothing and the Warp Spiders have between +4 and +8 to their combat resolution (+2 for kills, +2 for two inspiring, +1/+2 for out-numbering, and, if prepped, +2 for Blast marker issues).

That will seriously dent any formation.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

I was only figuring in raw damage, not tactical application since that can vary rather widely with experience and game considerations. As far as clipping goes, the the effects could be said of just about any FF based aspect formation with minimal retaliatory damage.

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-Vaaish

Vaaish, actually it can't be said about any of the other aspects.  The first strike on the FF means that the casualties are removed prior to the defenders rolling for their assaults.  Whereas other aspects would still get some retaliatory hit back on them, albeit usually a small one (depending on how well the clipping assault was pulled off).  

It was specifically this clipping FF first strike maneuver from transports that led to the nerf of their transport ability.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Expierenced exactly this myselfe.

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We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

As have I.  ePilgrim used two 'inferior' Vampires filled with solid Warp Spiders to wipe out two formations in my back field before I could do a darned thing about it and he experienced zero losses.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.