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[Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:49 pm 
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Who's for and against it?

I'm definately against of horde eldar feeling, as a mandatory choice.

Chroma, Could you tell me your answer for my previous post, please? :)

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:05 pm 
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(Charad @ Dec. 05 2007,14:49)
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Chroma, Could you tell me your answer for my previous post, please? :)

The 175 is a cut-n-paste error, Ulthw? Aspect Troupes are 150.

Will be corrected next version.

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illuvitar
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:48 am 
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For the love of all things holy please don't make troupes 2 per host! I nearly finished painting my army!!

I'm still wondering why this change was made and on what mandate?

Who's for and against it?

sorry i didnt get a word in on this sooner especially as it's posted as "official" on the s.g. site now, but i wanted a chance to play test it first.
my army has been painted for uthwe for sometime so i was already kind of annoyed, but after trying it out i really gotta say i wont be using the new list at my home games and wont be playing my ulthwe stuff at any official event as long as this stays in the new list.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:28 am 
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(illuvitar @ Feb. 01 2008,00:48)
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sorry i didnt get a word in on this sooner especially as it's posted as "official" on the s.g. site now, but i wanted a chance to play test it first.

Hey illuvitar, could you post an example list of what you would have fielded in an older version of the list?

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illuvitar
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:21 am 
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jeez let me see, basically ide have gone with two gaurdian companies with a 3000 point army, this would let me take my aspect "cavalry" (either mech infantry, for shooty aspects or in vampire for hand to hand) then ide have enough left over for swords of vaul and some war machines and air cover. with the new list (which seems fine in play besides this strange thing) i get HUGE group of gaurdians and MUST get some kind of wraithgate thing going or the farseers tell me it's over. i just dont see it as a workable list.
 if you feel you must do this in order to further limit aspects for that uthwe feel. perhaps you could try and include another main warhost. somthing like a tank company ??

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:23 am 
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I must be missing something in what you're saying illuvitar, because I just put together an army that seems to be exactly what you listed above... well, with *two* Swords of Vaul Troupes, so I'm not sure.

Please take a look at tell me what I'm missing:

Ulthwe Army List ? 3000 points

Avatar

Guardian Warhost 1
1 Seer Coucil
3 Heavy Weapons Platforms
4 Guardians

Guardian Warhost 2
1 Farseer
4 Guardians
2 Wraithguard
3 Heavy Weapon Platforms

Swords of Vaul Troupe 1
2 Falcons
2 Fire Prisms
1 Firestorm

Swords of Vaul Troupe 2
4 Fire Prisms
1 Firestorm

Engines of Vaul Troupe
2 Scorpions

Aspect Warrior Troupe
4 Dark Reapers
1 Exarch
4 Falcons

Nightwings
3 Nightwings

Revenant Titans
2 Revenant Titans

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illuvitar
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:08 am 
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oh sorry . or i could take titans every game. also as i said try and make it work with two aspect groups. but anyway ive played with the list and said my say.
 oh and i really wouldn't wanna field those gaurdians with no transport and no wraith gate, but that could be fixed in your list i suppose.

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illuvitar
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:46 pm 
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so o.k. fine your right.

-avatar
-wraith gate
- black gaurdians mech inf.
- gaurdians w' cream and sugar
    +wraithgaurd
 - swords
 - engines
 2x - hand to hand aspects
  vampire
 nightwings (or pheonix depending on how expensive you make your other companies)
but i still think it's unnessecarily limiting, it makes me not like the list, i already thought it was a bit nerfed as compared to the bel-tan list but thought it was neccessary to the "feel". i really dont see the justification for this change i supose is why it really bothers me.
also the gripe that people already have there armies painted up for the  list should be considered, i mean if the list was just broken thats one thing, but it seemed relatively good before.
 alright i think im really done now, anybody know where i can get a p.d.f. editor so i can change a word in a file ?  :devil:
 really tho chroma, thanks for all your hard work incorporating the 1.8 changes. it is appreciated, im sorry my previous posts didnt convey that.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:14 pm 
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(illuvitar @ Feb. 01 2008,16:46)
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but i still think it's unnessecarily limiting

illuvitar, are you talking about the "One Aspect Troupe per Warhost" limitation or the "Two Troupes per Warhost" limitation?

I'm slightly confused.

And, just so you know, I appreciate your thoughts and input.

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illuvitar
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:34 pm 
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the two troops per warhost. i mention the number of aspects because it seems to further limit them if you consider the need for at least some armor. my point was that one aspect per warhost and no aspect warhost was limiting enough.

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Fenvarien
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:49 pm 
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(illuvitar @ Feb. 01 2008,00:48)
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i really gotta say i wont be using the new list at my home games and wont be playing my ulthwe stuff at any official event as long as this stays in the new list.

I fully agree with you, illuvitar.

I think the ulthw?-list has become a bit too restrictive since the last update, especially when compared to (standard) biel-tan. Only two troupes per warhost is a little bit odd considering the only "core choice" you have is the guardian-warhost. Thinking of War Walker and Windrider Troupes - which are also just guardian manned - makes it even more scary, doesn?t it?  ???

Further more the Seer Council @ +100pts seems overpriced now. Yes, +50pts for a supreme-commander upgrade was too cheap, but considering that it is an upgrade to an already expensive farseer-unit +75pts would be more adequate.

Another problem that I have with the list is the current black guardian warhost. I just don?t see a reason to pay +50pts for it, not at least because a second farseer is not that usefull. Normally you won`t get it into CC or don?t want to have it there, but on the other hand it is even worse in FF then a standard guardian stand.

I would simply drop the second farseer-unit and make the basic Black-Guardian-Host 175pts.
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illuvitar
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:46 pm 
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all valid points, in my opinion the list was fine after the addition of the 1.8 changes. but like i said i could live with it if it didnt further limit the unit choices.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:25 am 
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(Fenvarien @ Feb. 02 2008,16:49)
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Another problem that I have with the list is the current black guardian warhost.

Black Guardians have an Initiative of 1+, with a Farseer, they retain on a 1+...

If it was valid, I'd only take Black Guardians to have them all 1+

Generally, most Eldar armies seem to be 2 Warhosts, and 6 Troupes, plus Support units.  Ulthwe, just needs to be 3 Warhosts to get the 6 Troupes, I don't think it's that great of a hardship, 150 points for a bare bones Guardian Warhost which is still a killer firefight formation; as well, Ulthwe is known for fielding "hordes" of Guardians as their fighting force.

Lastly, you can use the other Craftworld lists to represent any Craftworld, just taking a different "stance"; Ulthwe has probably fielded large armies of Aspect Warriors in the past, but the "hot-headedness" of the Autarch leading them slightly lessesn the Seer Council's control over the battle.  That's using Biel-Tan army list, with an army painted in Ulthwe colours, which is a totally valid choice for army building.

Personally, I play Ulthwe to represent my home-brew Craftworld because I'd always played it in 40k as Guardian and Warlock heavy, so Ulthwe fits for my ideas.  I love have a non-Marine Strategy Rating 5 force, but that needs to be paid for and Ulthwe's limitations are the payment.

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Fenvarien
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:32 am 
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(Chroma @ Feb. 03 2008,03:25)
QUOTE

(Fenvarien @ Feb. 02 2008,16:49)
QUOTE
Another problem that I have with the list is the current black guardian warhost.

Black Guardians have an Initiative of 1+, with a Farseer, they retain on a 1+...

If it was valid, I'd only take Black Guardians to have them all 1+

Generally, most Eldar armies seem to be 2 Warhosts, and 6 Troupes, plus Support units. ?Ulthwe, just needs to be 3 Warhosts to get the 6 Troupes, I don't think it's that great of a hardship, 150 points for a bare bones Guardian Warhost which is still a killer firefight formation; as well, Ulthwe is known for fielding "hordes" of Guardians as their fighting force.

Lastly, you can use the other Craftworld lists to represent any Craftworld, just taking a different "stance"; Ulthwe has probably fielded large armies of Aspect Warriors in the past, but the "hot-headedness" of the Autarch leading them slightly lessesn the Seer Council's control over the battle. ?That's using Biel-Tan army list, with an army painted in Ulthwe colours, which is a totally valid choice for army building.

Personally, I play Ulthwe to represent my home-brew Craftworld because I'd always played it in 40k as Guardian and Warlock heavy, so Ulthwe fits for my ideas. ?I love have a non-Marine Strategy Rating 5 force, but that needs to be paid for and Ulthwe's limitations are the payment.

Yes, retaining on 1+ is nice to have but you will still have to pay for that and there are limitations which prevent taking an all Black Guardian warhost composition. Maybee those should be a little bit more restrictive. Rounding fractions down when determing the number of BG-hosts you are allowed to pick would solve that.
A pritty useless second Farseer and losing the option of taking Wraithconstructs isn?t that tempting, you know.  :;): Those War Walkers also seem a bit odd -but at least the models are cool. Jetbikes and especially Vypers are quite nice, but you don?t really need them and most of the time it is much more usefull to invest the points directly in Windriders (Troupe).


Regarding the 2 Troupes per Warhost, I have to admit that I can live with that. The 3k Ulthw? army I?m currently using concsists of 3 Guardian Warhosts and 6 Troupes. But further expanding this beeing forced to field a fourth or even a fifth Guardian Warhost whereas Black Guardians are symply not worth taking is simply a sad thing.  

Using other Craftworlds armylists to represent my Ulthw? is no alternative for me. I symply love my Seers Council conversion... .  :D
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illuvitar
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:26 pm 
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im done with this thread, way too annoying. chroma i have yet to hear a valid reason why the three to two change, but your right in that one can use any list one wants. i will probably just go back to using beltan at this point.
 to bad tho, i too was a real fan of ulthwe fluff and would have liked to see an usable army list.

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