Whilst it does mean some work to bring the lists into line, I like the concept of a separate "Summon" ability which then differentiates from the "Farsight" ability (for the second retain). This gives us greater flexibility in which units have a given ability and also clarifies the situation for newer players.

^aye^

Regardless of where it gets applied, it's going to be able to provide far more fidelity to the lists. I like having "another dial" to turn

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I don't get why the warlock needs to be able to summon the avatar? it already gets leader, inspiring and farsight, and inspires cries of 'overpowered!' from many players, it's fine, it needs no more buffs, it's clearly the 850 point titan of choice

if it's confusion from farsight, then encourage people to read the rules more carefully, formations like farseers, spirit councils and wraithseers are all noted as being able to summon the avatar.... the fact that they all happen to have farsight is merely coincidental

Eldar already get a boatload of buffs and special rules, they are a powerful army in experienced hands, at this point it's really a question of what we can take away from the list to balance it, if warlock lists were routinely losing and the complaints were "if only I'd been able to summon the avatar with the warlock titan! that would have turned the tables and turned a 4-0 loss into a win!" then maybe.... but please just stop fixing stuff that is just not broken, just because the warlock build is arguably marginally sub-optimal for Biel-Tan doesn't mean it needs any buffs....

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I sadly can't bring any playtests to this, but my Avatar at the EEC 2015 was a monster, often managing 3 assaults in critical turns - backbreaking. If it had a pocket Avatar to trigger yet another assault...

I'd argue that a "Warlock" build is far from suboptimal - you just need to make a proper one, ie one that goes all in on getting the Warlock into as many assaults as possible! Turning the Avatar into one extra Warlock assault per game, little planning required, is not a good idea.

I agree the Warlock is a beast and really doesn't need the ability to summon. However, that is a separate debate. Defining "Summon" as an ability is a cool idea that adds clarity while simplifying stat lines.

Do we actually need a new special ability to fix this? I agree that it's possible for people to misinterpret the Biel-Tan list because it references the Farseer and people might wonder if it also means the farseer in the warlock, but surely the answer to that is just to change the wording slightly. It is a non-normative change, doesn't need anybody to vote on anything. It's just a matter of changing a small amount of text to be more explicit.

"Only the Farseer unit may summon the Avatar"
or
"Note: the Warlock Titan may not summon the Avatar"

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The Avatar could refer specifically to Farseers, and then Spirit Seers et al can just get a note that says "may summon the Avatar".

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Isn't the summon rule a list specific rule, not a unit rule? Just write a new rule for every Craftworld list.

Edit: yep, it's a GT specific rule. It has to be rewritten for every list anyway, so just list what units may summon the Avatar for that specific list. Ulthwé would say "Farseer or Seer Council".

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- Ulrik

So in summary we have the following

• Option 3A (Units with Farsight can summon the Avatar)
• Option 3B (defining a "Summon" ability) seems a much better idea
• Kyrt, Ulrik and possibly others are suggesting a third option (3C) where specific units in a given list are declared at the top of the list as being able to summon the Avatar.

Option 3A allows the Warlock to use it's Farsight to summon the Avatar, which is OTT.

Option 3C is fiddly IMO, because we would still need to specify the "Summon Avatar" rule in both the list and in each relevant unit. This would require separate wording for each list to define which units can (or cannot) summon the Avatar, with the wording "may summon the Avatar" applied to each relevant unit.

Option 3B still requires us to specify the "Summon Avatar" rule as relevant to those units with the "Summon" ability, but this becomes a boiler-plate text applied to all Eldar lists. It also reduces the volume of text in the special rule, and more critically to "Summon" on the Unit ability in the quick reference sheets.

Why are you assuming we need to create a new "summon avatar" rule? You're trying to make it more fiddly and make people flick between pages. Just fix the existing text, surely? IMO you can fix it with the addition of one word. Instead of "Farseer", "Farseer unit".

If you specifically want to have the rule for its own sake aside from clarity (ie to move it out of the army list and make it an actual special rule like farsight), fair enough, but otherwise isn't this just making a mountain out of a molehill?*

* Sorry to the non-native English speakers!

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LoL Kyrt, you say potato, I say tomato etc . . .

I am suggesting / supporting PFE100 in the creation of a "Summon" rule both for its own sake (to match the way Farsight and other rules are presented) and also for clarity - it removes any residual confusion over whether a given unit, or even the Warlock, can actually summon the Avatar.

It also simplifies / clarifies the presentation of the lists by replacing the text "may summon the Avatar" with "Summon" in the relevant unit stats. (The other text was specifically added to various units because merely having the special rule at the top of a list did not always make it crystal clear whether a unit could or could not summon.)

Does that make more sense?

Totally disagree, Ginger. Adding the summon rule is the fidgety option. The rule is not a unit rule - it's a GT list rule. It's a rule for deployment, and shouldn't appear on the units datasheet.

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- Ulrik

Hmm, I'm with Ulrik.
Another Special rule is not what the Eldar list need. My suggestion is to simply add a note in the Avatar section "Titans may not summon the Avatar" or similar if it is a big problem.
And just a thought, I know it is not very fluffvise right, but most seems to think that the problem is that the Warlock is a very good titan, especially when it manages to tripple retain and assault a lot on 1+. Have we considered taking away "farsight" from the Warlock altogether?

THIS

+1