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Ulthwe v4.1

 Post subject: Re: Ulthwe v4.1
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:28 pm 
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Than, I need to post battreps about my last 5 games :D 3 of them from this recent tournament..
It will take lot of time, because I also play with Blood Angels, and on that topic, I also need to write batreps :D

BTW, does anyone play with Ulthwé? Or I'm alone in the world? ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwe v4.1
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:33 am 
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I don't play them but have my eyes set on them for when I turn eldar. So your not alone in your interests in this list. I'm doing 'nids now, but am yet undecided as to what my next project will be, either Ulthwe or an imperial guard army.


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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwe v4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:19 pm 
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Then start playing with them -another step closer to the appsroved status :D

Actually, I think Ulthwé's greatest advantage is it's SR 5, besides that, nothing special -no real hitting power, like Acpects/Wraithguard, they just "faster" than most of their opponents, and hit them before they can react..

Anyone ever tried the Black Guardians (on foot) + War Walkers?


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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwe v4.1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:36 pm 
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Where do we stand on this? Should we test the list as it is, with init 1+ Black Guardians and SR5?

Or should we go for a 4.2 with init 2+ and some compensation?

Here's a simple outline of Ulthwé background:

More Psykers -> fewer Aspects -> Veteran guardians

(afaik Ulthwé do not have more Guardians than other Craftworlds, it's just that they rely on them more because they lack Aspects)

My suggestions:
IF
- 1+ Black Guardians
and/or
- SR5

is removed, then these can be considered:
- 6 strong Aspect Troupes
- Keep 4 strong Aspects, but allow 3 troupes per warhost - but only 1 Aspect troupe per warhost
- To represent a heavier focus on Psykers, Farseers swap Shuriken Pistols (small arms) for Psychic Powers (small arms, macro weapon) and change the name to Ulthwé Farseer. (Note: not EA+1 as the Seer Council has, so it would be one FF5+ attack but with MW.)
- Reduce Black Guardians to 175 points. The difference over normal Guardians is now one Farseer unit, is that worth 50 points?


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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwe v4.1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:37 pm 
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Just wait for 6-12 months and the AC will probably answer... ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwe v4.1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:50 am 
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3 months now.. :)

Just another thought -did someone tried Black Guardians with the War Walkers upgrade? Just looking after a shooty army (yeah, the guys at the club are bored with mechanized guardians, so I need a new concept :D ), with BG heavy weapons, war walkers, and support platforms -jumping out from a gate/Storm Seprent, or something like that -grab a T&H objective in cover, etc

Another one: if I have 2 Storm Serpents in a formation, and upgrade 2 common guardian formations with 3x Wraithguard, 3x Wraithlord, and use SR5 to grab the initiative, and triple with the Serpents, can I use both of their gates for the Guardians, as my 2nd & 3rd activation? Am I correct? This can be deadly, even for titans -if I can mae it -and then, consolidate to cover :D


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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwe v4.1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:46 am 
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Darn computers freeing on you.

New AC is currently pushing the minor changes to the BT list and looking for a Sub-AC for the Iyanden. Once we can get these sorted out we can push on with the other lists.

Quote:
Another one: if I have 2 Storm Serpents in a formation, and upgrade 2 common guardian formations with 3x Wraithguard, 3x Wraithlord, and use SR5 to grab the initiative, and triple with the Serpents, can I use both of their gates for the Guardians, as my 2nd & 3rd activation? Am I correct? This can be deadly, even for titans -if I can mae it -and then, consolidate to cover :D
Yes, this is close to how I used to play my Ulthwe (although I used separate Serpents). The problem I encountered was opponents setting their forces as far back as possible making the initial March-Engage difficult to pull off.

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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwe v4.1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:19 am 
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BTW, the same question here: How many Ulthwé players do we have? How popular is this list? Just want to see, how many players can we count to test something -it will define the speed of the changes/achivements.. So, who's playing with Ulthwé -both NetEA/EUK?


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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwe v4.1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:32 am 
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My Eldar are Ulthwé, so I can test.

Unfortunately, I suck at actually sitting down and writing batreps :(


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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwe v4.1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:31 pm 
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It's not that hard mate. 4-5 photos and just writing down every move. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwe v4.1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:51 pm 
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Sometimes it's hard to take make even this.. :D

Maybe sharing the experience/feeling about some units -from both of the players!- is also valuble.
But yeah, batreps are the most important things for a developmental army list!


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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwe v4.1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:31 pm 
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I was army champ for more than a year, wrote notes for one game but never posted it. I suck

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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwe v4.1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:25 pm 
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Count me in.
I plan on taking my eldar for a spin in the coming months.


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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwe v4.1
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:04 am 
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Just a warning this is going to be long. I am very bad at getting to the point. ;D There is a TL;DR at the bottom.

So I realize that Biel Tan and Iyanden are still making some headway and that Ulthwe will have to wait for now. I just had some recent ideas regarding the Ulthwe craftworld though and just wanted to jot my ideas down and share with you all before things get going once again. You all may agree or disagree with them and that’s fine as the list has been in development for the better part of 5 years now. These are merely fun and hopefully balanced suggestions I would like to propose to the community.

Based on forum discussions, it appears that the general consensus of the list is that Ulthwe:
- Have fewer Aspect Warriors
- Have more Guardians/Black Guardians
- Possibly have more Farseers/Warlocks
- Utilize the webway in some manner/be more mobile

I for one completely agree with such a direction. It appears the discussion breaks down with regards to the SR 5 and the 1+ Initiative of the Black Guardians. While there appears to be some criticism regarding the Strategy Rating, it seems that most can live with it. As has already been stated SR 5 is very fluffy and game wise gives the list a very unique feel and function. It is the 1+ Initiative roll of the Black Guardians in tangent withe the SR 5 where things start to get particularly heated. It seems then that the Black Guardians are the crux of the matter regarding getting Ulthwe approved. All other units are fairly in line with the other craftworlds and despite the pros and cons of the small Aspect formations, I think they should be left alone as well. Therefore I would like to leave all these formations alone for now and simply focus on the BG as a result. Note I am not a proponent of taxing all units points wise just because of the SR 5 as I do not feel it is warranted and would likely push approval back even further. Plus precedent regarding Warhounds and SR exists already (yes I am aware counter precedents exist as well but I am biased!). So regarding the BGs here are a few ideas…

1.) My first suggestion would be to drop the 1+ initiative of the BGs to a 2+. My understanding is the EpicUK has had no issue with such a change and I see no reason that it should be any different within NetEA. Testing would be necessary of course. Many appear extremely reluctant to allow 3 1+ initiative rolls in a row and while setting that exact situation up may not always be possible, the fact that it remains a possibility is nonetheless disconcerting. I also believe the 1+ initiative is too strong and welcome the 2+ initiative idea.

2.) To compensate for the change to a 2+ change I have two suggestions. One would be to decrease the points as in EpicUK fashion. The other would require a little more legwork but I feel would be more true to fluff and healthier for the formation as a whole. I propose that BGs receive a bonus to their FF up to a 3+. BGs are more highly trained than regular Guardians and if they lose the 2+ initiative something should show for it. In the past BGs of regular 40K got a BS boost and I see no reason why BGs in EA shouldn’t either. They simply have more training and accuracy should show for it. Dire Avengers use the same weapons as guardans but it’s their training that gives them that extra attack in an assault. BGs aren’t DAs by any stretch but they are far better trained combatants than regular Guardans and so their FF should be somewhere in the middle. A 2+ FF would likely be too strong. I am not sure how points should be scored but with the loss of the 1+ initiative and the FF buff it could potentially stay the same. Worst case scenario you can just replace the 2nd farseer for another BG to nerf it somewhat. Although I am not sure how I feel regarding this as the BGs are supposed to be led by more Farseers (techincally more Warlocks) into combat. If not then maybe increase points slightly?

3.) Another key feature, particularly for the BGs, is the heavy use of the webway. I saw some interesting comments regarding teleportation (and the Avatar issue which sprang up) as well as a few others. I think that was a step in the right direction but not quite there. I think we should capitalize on this idea however. Again I think EpicUK had a great idea when they made the Dark Eldar army list, namely the 0-1 Portable Webway Portal. Ulthwe is renowned for its use of webways, and while I’m sure they utilize larger webways for major assaults via vehicles, wraithlords, and even larger constructs just like any other craftworld (which are still doable mind you via storm serpents and the Wraithgate), Ulthwe’s niche revolved around tiny wraithgate stones that could even be deployed by individual warlocks/farseers.

The idea would be to allow ANY farseer unit to deploy a single Portable Webay Portal once per game, much like the Farsight rule and the Avatar. The rationale is that if DE can do it then Ulthwe of all craftworlds should be able to do it as well. The defining note however is that only BGs and not normal guardians can use it. This means Wraithlords/wraithguard will not be able to utilize the gate. The other reason why any farseer can deploy a portable webway portal has to do with the idea BGs are able to appear just about anywhere on the battlefield. In the DE list a formation with a portable webway can hide in the main wraithgate, advance, double, even triple across the map, drop its portable gateway, and then allow for an appropriate formation to assault/activate out of it in turn. The DE portable gate is essentially completely protected and can be deployed safely just about anywhere on the table whereas normal craftworld elder have no real means of protecting their portable webway portal. The Ulthwe formation carrying the portable webway would be a liability and immediately targeted. Storm serpents could be used but they can be easily countered. Wave serpent formations would be fairly targetable as well. Lastly the main Wraithgate could be used by a farseer but then you are greatly minimizing the mobility of the BGs that would pop out of the portable one. So yes you can technically protect the portable portal but at great cost in either points or mobility, defeating the whole purpose. Plus multiple stones carried by multiple farseers continues to fit the fluff. This hopefully shares the spirit of the teleportation idea proposed a long time ago. It presents the idea of the extreme mobility of the BGs but not to the point where you could have multiple BGs popping up all over the table. Plus there is no issue with the Avatar summoning either.

Having any farseer be able to drop the portable webway makes the BGs extremely more flexible which fits the fluff better and since they don’t have access to some of the bigger hitters (WL/WG) they are less game breaking. Ideally instead of point taxing all farseers it would be the BGs who would pay for such an upgrade, I am thinking somewhere within the realms of 50 points. Oh and if you’re not familiar with the DE portal you can only use it once per game.

4. It is important to define what kind of upgrades a BG should get. I think there should still be 2 separate formations of BGs. The one in wave serpents (which can never arrive via portals) and normal BGs which can purchase the portable webway portal. The latter should also still have access to War Walkers and Support Weapons. This means War Walkers could also use the portable gateway as well, making the unit a little tougher but no where near WG/WL levels. If a heavy weapon platform replaces a BG unit maybe consider giving it a +1 to FF.

5. Lastly, and this is just a personal idea which by no means needs be used (although the more I think about it the more I like it), is to upgrade non-wave serpent BG formations with Dark Reapers. The fluff says Maugan Ra and DRs in general had very close ties to Ulthwe, particularly Ulthwe Black Guardian Strike Forces. This could be considered in the Ulthwe list. Simply allow DR 2 units for 75 points, or maybe even 2-4 units for 75-150 points with the option to include an exarch at 25 points. This would make the non-WS BGs strong and characterful, but since they can only use the portable webway once (and potentially the main Wraithgate) I would hope it wouldn’t be too powerful. Initiative would still stay at 2+ because the BGs slow down the DRs slightly.

Ultimately the idea is to make the BGs strong but hopefully not too strong. Wave Serpent BG formations stay pretty much the same (besides the initiative and FF changes) but the on foot BGs get some love that hopefully acts as both a nerf (initiative change) and a buff (everything else mentioned) to make them an interesting and useful element to the Ulthwe craftworld. Call me a genius or call me crazy I don’t care it was fun to think this stuff up and gave me a much needed study break lol. :P

TL;DR

1. Change Black Guardians to Initiative 2+.
2. Upgrade BGs FF to 3+. Maybe replace second Farseer with another BG. Mess with points as needed. Or leave stats alone and decrease points because of Initiative change.
3. Provide a 50 point 0-1 Portable Webway Portal (like EpicUK Dark Eldar) upgrade to BG formation that can only be used once per game and only be used by the upgraded BG formation in question. ANY farseer can deploy the portal.
4. Normal BG upgrades for wave serpent and non-wave serpent formations remain the same. Maybe upgrade Heavy Weapon Platform to FF 4+.
5. Provide Dark Reaper upgrade to non-WS BG formation. 2 for 75 points, maybe 2-4 for 75-150 points, exarch upgrade for 25 points standard.


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